Open thread. Life and Death

Logic asks us to interpret everything in terms of a beginings and an ends. Since we interpret everything around us in terms of absolute existence in time and in space, we naturally assume beginings and ends. Yet quantum physics and the great spiritualists encourage us look at everything in terms of potential existence rather than absolute existence. The most abiding human emotions like faith and love are not based on beginigs and ends, but on concepts of eternity.
So here his the question. If there was no begining, how could there be an end ? If we were never born, how can we die ?

85 Responses to “Open thread. Life and Death”

  1. XYZ says:

    Beginning, end, and everything in between seems to me to be created in the present.
    I could believe that the past created me or I could believe that I create the past, and future–every moment. The latter makes sense. Why? An infinite point in the past or future as a point of causation fails the math test. However, an infinite past and future makes perfect sense as ‘imaginations’ because imagination cannot be confined within any boundaries.
    Same goes for space.
    Time and space. What else is there?

  2. Aditarya says:

    Bravo Shekhar! Cant help admiring u. I really would like to know how does science explain life. Can anybody suggest any topics or books to read.
    Luv,
    Adi

  3. Anahata says:

    Eternity is possibly the only thing vaster than itself… whatever the word represents to us…whatever the purpose we created the word for…
    It somehow doesn’t seem plausible to me that it didn’t exist before the word was born… but if the word wasn’t birthed, would it have ‘existed’? Maybe not in our dictionary…
    But I am sure it would keep expressing ‘her’self in forms and blurbs…in minds and hearts… inside rocks and clouds… among humans and spirits…
    Like movies, we move about our lives in a simulated ‘set’…keeping track of our stories…the beginnings…the middles and the ends. Like scrambled words in a dictionary… we sift through our lives making up ‘definitions’… holding up absolute meanings and truths and lies, updating them from time to time… so we can still continue to pretend that we have grasped it all…well at least almost.
    How intricate are we as expressions of eternity…
    but outside the dramas in the movie set…beyond meanings and definitions in the dictionary… we must ‘exist’…as imagination… as memories… as eternity… just like questions…and answers!;)

  4. Wow! Thats the question! Many spiritualists interpreted this “cycle of life” in many different ways, and billions of people lived (existed) by it. In my opinion Geeta, is the most practical handbook of it, which was kind of been adapted and elaborated by Deepak Chopra as “Life After Death” (made big $$ too ? ).
    In our short transitory life time, how many times do we begin again – when we went to a nursery school (that was a beginning). After finishing our studies we step into this material world, and then we realise that whatever we studied and what we know is nothing. (It becomes another beginning).
    Starting a married life is a new beginning. Putting your life together is another beginning after you get divorce.
    Life is a continuous chain of new beginnings…AND by the time we get tired of all these beginnings again and again “we die”. Because this body doesn’t or can not afford any more beginnings.
    SO Now RELIGIOUSLY we call this end (death) a new beginning. But I BELIEVE that this is certainly an end. At least for that chapter what we read through. Now the next chapter is what we don’t know and we should not be worried about it too.
    Living this life without loosing the innocence in us is the only beginning, as well as the end of our life. Living this life with the full truth is “life” and worrying about Death of after death is an end of it.
    “Main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya
    Har phikar ko dhooyien mein uraata chala gaya….”
    Please take a look at this new video I made with my daughter which goes with what we are talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJmQM3kAM0w
    Regards

  5. Navin says:

    “So here his the question. If there was no begining, how could there be an end ? If were never born, how can we die ?”
    I’m ok with no beginnings and no ends. Just like matter cannot be created or destroyed, the life force in us merely changes forms. But that life force remains here on this planet and does not go to some imaginary places called heaven or hell, unless proven otherwise in the future.
    I remember when I told an acquaintance once that I didn’t believe in the concept of God, he said, “If you don’t believe in God, then you are an animal”. I felt bad for a moment because my conditioning had taught me that “animal” is a derogatory word when used in context with humans. But that gave me an insight that it is the height of ego for humans to believe that they are any better than the other animals (living creatures) on this planet! Organised religions would have us believe that only humans have “souls” and not the other “animals” on this planet. How come?
    To me, it’s not important what happens to us before we are born or after we die. We have no information on that and we have no control over that either. We should be more concerned about the interim and make the best use of the time we have.
    Cheers!
    Navin

  6. kedar says:

    dude…
    you told in one of your blog entires about how the idea of making PAANI came to your mind…
    you were in your friend’s flat..he was taking bath for 30 min…you were frustrated because of Bandit Queen protests you had to face…you left the flat and sat in your car and drove away and while you were passing through some lane, you saw a queue standing for water…single person taking bath under shower for 30 min and more than 30 people standing for a bucket of water… PAANI took birth…
    this life of yours and your surrounding, its past and future too have similar kind of starting point…
    but………………………………………
    you were there before PAANI…you will be there after PAANI will be made…
    similarly, before this solar system and universe as in MATTER…there was everything….even after this universe seizes to be, there will be everything… the point is that when ONE will reach to the starting point of his existence…
    when one will realize how PAANI got made,he will know how other films are made and will be made… the fundamentals never change…only stories change…
    who thought of PAANI?…you did…!
    who has the question?… you have…!
    who will make PAANI?…you will…!
    who can answer your question?………..
    take care…tata…kedar…

  7. kavitha says:

    “…If we were never born, how can we die ?”
    This question instantly kindled the concept of reincarnation. Along my path of discovery out of personal fascination and intrigue for this concept over the years, have been some interesting insights…particularly from the extensive work of people like Dr. Ian Stevenson (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html) and Dr. Walter Simkew (http://www.johnadams.net/about.html), both of who are grounded in science but have deep interests in the metaphysical. The latter features examples that trace and link the past lives of several popular figures, making the case for reincarnation – one such being that of Agastya Muni from the past (of Naadi Shaastra fame) & Dattatreya Siva Baba from the present (http://www.johnadams.net/cases/samples/Agastyar-Baba/index.html)
    So, if the soul journeyed on through these reincarnations, death is an illusion?
    Also check out:
    http://www.deathisanillusion.com/page.pl?id=2&cid=1
    http://www.johnadams.net/cases/samples/Bollywood/index.html

  8. Elizabeth Baenisch says:

    Sundance Deepak Shekhar Elizabeth
    Imagine

  9. Neeta says:

    The tulip head buoying in the breeze
    colourful, splendid, full of life indeed
    Withered after days of being the best there is.
    On the same flower-bed there now appears
    A rose of beauty, joy and dear
    Just like the tulip in egoless surrender.
    They didn’t live, the tulip and the rose
    Knowing death after life offers no console.

  10. kishore says:

    The reluctance to accept an end seems to be universal. The fact is, we will die. All of us. Life will go on, but life as we know it on Earth can be wiped out too. We know this. Yet we are so afraid.. This is a gift, an opportunity to experience, interact, think. So many among us don’t realize what a precious gift it is to be given life, and to be an individual. There is nothing beyond the end, nothing to be afraid of..there will be an end, a period, to each of our existance. There is no hell to worry about, or heaven to look forward to – this is it. We can make this a good experience or a bad one.. but there’s just one chance. One unfathomably improbable circumstance that you are you. It is like winning a lottery in the universe. You won it. Why do you regret?

  11. XYZ says:

    As to the question of being born and dying, both, I think are reconfigurations of energy. Anyone who disagrees with this everyday phenomena of matter and energy changing forms has a lot of work to do in overcoming their ego which makes them believe they are so different from other life (and ‘lifeless’) forms that a ‘special power’ has given them a ‘unique’ soul that goes to this special place called heaven. The ego spins tales upon tales of its immortality and its specialness, yet if it were to only die before the body does, only purest truth will remain.
    Navin, I think the life force does not have a local reality. I believe it cannot be said to reside anywhere in specific. It is the ego that lives in the illusion of locality (or separation). So, not only are heaven and hell and gods imaginary, to a realized mind, the entire universe is ‘imaginary’. (It shouldn’t sound so drab because true immortality is the follow-up to dispelling imaginary or illusory existence.)

  12. GJ says:

    ok kind a complicated this…
    when you read Locke’s theory of existence – The Tabula rasa – life begins afresh every morning as a blenk slate. It is filled anew each morning with new concepts, ideas, with pasta, presents and futures. It is in a way dying every morning and waking up or being born anew.
    Extend that to every minute or moment in eternity of your life. Every minute that you live, you die in many ways and are reborn in many ways. This is essential for the process of life to continue. Otherwise you would be left with static form. Which is death. If you are not dying or being reborn, you are not living. Ergo, life without death = death without life.

  13. Navin says:

    Dear XYZ,
    I find your posts to be some of the most interesting on this site. Both your #1 and #11 made me think. I used to believe that my present is an outcome of the choices made by me in my past. But you say that both our past and our future are made in the present moment. Interesting. I am still thinking upon it. If I’m not mistaken this concept was the theme of some movie also? Pls elaborate on how exactly does this happen, if you can.
    I have always had this feeling of being timeless. It’s like either I’m standing still in time, or time is standing still for me.
    So if the entire universe is imaginary, that means all locations are imaginary. Even you and I are imaginary. I exist because you imagine I do (as Shekhar’s tagline says). But if I’m just a product of your imagination (and you of mine) then how do we all imagine the same things? After all, there are thousands of other people who recognize me as “Navin” besides you. There seems to be perfect synchronization in everybody’s imagination.
    If all of us are playing some kind of a Virtual Reality game and creating our own environs, and directing our own Life Movie, then how does everyone’s reality seamlessly merges into One Universally Accepted Reality? For example, all of us believe and agree that there is a place called London at a certain location on the globe and all of us could take the next flight to reach that place physically, if we so desired. That London exists is a universally accepted fact. Why isn’t there a difference of opinion on the existence of London if the entire Universe is imaginary? Why doesn’t somebody say that London does not exist in my imagination? How do we all end up imagining the same thing? Also, if London is imaginary, then why can’t we reach it at the speed of thought? Why do we have to reach it in a plane and spend a number of hours in reaching there? Isn’t that proof that Time and Space do exist?
    “Every minute that you live, you die in many ways and are reborn in many ways. This is essential for the process of life to continue. Otherwise you would be left with static form. Which is death. If you are not dying or being reborn, you are not living.”………..GJ
    Yes, I absolutely agree. Everyone knows that our bodies are made up of tiny cells which keep on dying and are replaced with fresh new ones. This is a continual process. In fact, our bodies keep renewing themselves completely at regular intervals.
    Cheers!
    Navin

  14. cam says:

    It is actually very necessary to think, to seek n to delve on these quests to go beyond these n to finally realise their irrelevance.They help only if we think to d point of exhaustion when theres no more thinking,an end to d theory n a new beginning of LIVING. Accepting LIFE with open arms n a broad smile in every situation, which is easier said than done. Ultimately its our conduct in d karambhumi that matters.Do we think of beginning or end when- a parent is dying,d child is sick or d spouse is leaving- we dont! We can use these support systems for consolation but its only a consolation.what comes handy is d resilience which weve acquired from facing life n not running away from it. By living d moment, living d MUNDANE N NOT BEING AFFECTED BY IT. Its d mundane dat liberates. there r no answers on d way,they say it just happens n uhave all d answers in a flash. But there r no shortcuts n these questions r essential to d whole package, kind of milestones….SO….HAPPY THINKING!!!

  15. Rudra says:

    Shekhar,
    We dont know. But we dont accept we dont know. We dont know what comes after the ‘end’ ! we can only be sure there is a beginning to our existence and that it continues to provide us with sensory experience .
    What speculation and insufficient science will tell us is that life is chemical energy , a bit of reading into Yoga and the Gita will tell us off the existance of ‘atman’.
    So what ? It still leaves us where we are !
    The simple truth is this : it can never be transmitted – this knowledge , since the experience is subjective . Gita , is the most beautiful and categorical of all spiritual messages to mankind.
    But we still want to speculate , wonder , ponder , try to act intelligent about what we can never know , except by ‘faith’ in the words of the Rishis – the supramental beings of eternal fame !
    So then let the world be divided into those that innately accept the message and knowledge of the Gita – words of the Lord Krishna (or christo in Pali language of 300 b.c ) , or those that want to speculate and think that sensory intelligence can lead us anywhere in suh matters !

  16. your questions makes me think about Mirza ghalib’s that line.
    “HUI MUDDATT KI GHALIB MAR GAYA PAR YAAD AATA HAI”
    WOH HAR EK BAAT PE KEHNA KI YUN HOTA TO KYA HOTA.
    English translation:
    “An era has passed since “ghalib”(name of poet) died but we remember him for..
    To say.. at every step, if it hadn’t happened like that, then what….?
    And i think its essential to ask these questions for every creative being!
    keep up the good work.
    Regards!
    sanjay

  17. You are right Rudra,
    I would say we should be more focused on what is life..rather than discussing what is after death. I met a guy a couple of years ago at one of the gas stations in New Jersey. This is a true story. After discussing so much life and death, last night I edited his footage and put it on youtube. Check it out here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h48mCY0UIs
    Regards
    sanjay

  18. These thoughts occured to me long ago. They seem to be universal in a way:
    JEEVAN
    (JEEVAN = LIFE: Language-HINDI)
    Kya Sat hai? kya Asat hai?
    Kya jeevan ki paribhaasha?
    Kisne jaana? Kisne samajha?
    Har pal paas nirasha.
    Kyon maanav chintit hai?
    Hai jeevan ka kya arth?
    Kya hoga yeh jaan kar,
    Yadi Mrityu sadev samarth?
    Charam rahasyamay vishva men
    Kya Jarh hai, kya Chetan?
    Kisne samajha inmen antar?
    Kisne kiya vivechan?
    Maanav jeevan Mahakaal men
    He keval ek pal,
    Vishva-vyapta sangeet niraala
    Jeevan ki halchal.
    Svarga Narka ki seema men hi
    Seemit yeh sansaar,
    Yahin Svarga hai, yahin Narka hai,
    Paya yeh har baar.
    Mukti Moksha ki khoj men
    Maanav prati pal rakta,
    Jisko dekha vyasta hai,
    Kya bhogi, kya bhakta.
    Jeevan hai mithyapan,
    Saakshi hriday-heen itihaas,
    Kaalchakra ke madhya Shunyata
    Ka hota aabhaas.
    Darshan, manan, adhyayan –
    Sarva nihit agyaan,
    In sab joorh jatil prashnon men
    Kahan chipa bhagwaan?
    Mrityudvaar ke peeche kya hai?
    Yeh sab kisne jaana?
    Is jeevan ke mool bhaav ko
    Kab kisne pehchaana?
    Jeevan – darshan
    Svapna-rahit nidra men bhara samaaya,
    Jo Sat hai, vo Asat hai,
    Jo Brahma, vo Maaya.
    RAJIV RANJAN RAWAT
    16 March 1985
    UOR Roorkee
    India
    http://blogs.mail.ru/mail/mrrawat/
    I am now living in Russia but they still seem pertinent. But… XYZ has made me take a fresh look from a different perspective though.

  19. XYZ says:

    Hi Navin, thanks for your nice words. I will try to answer the questions you have raised with the caveat that deeper levels of reality are more a feeling rather than knowing. Intellectual understanding is regulated at the level of the mind, while mystical understanding has a feminine quality and happens at the level of the heart. The wisdom of the heart has a soothing quality to it and it is not analytical or loud but rather silent and satisfied in itself. It is not learned and it appears like it is the fountainhead of all that we know or might know. It is therefore accessed by quietening the noisy mind through meditation or through the grace of the supreme feminine energy (kundalini) that is present in everyone but lies in a suppressed state especially in our yang world of today.
    “I used to believe that my present is an outcome of the choices made by me in my past.”
    There is no me. Me that you are alluding to is a bunch of conditionings that are all learned and inherited depending upon where and how your physical life started out (and that is not a choice you could ever make.) All choices you think you made (later on) is the ego spinning tales of actions in the name of me. To really understand the truth behind this the ‘me’ needs to be shed. Then the past and future and everything else will stand out for what they are–memory and conditionings.
    There seems to be perfect synchronization in everybody’s imagination.
    Exactly, it is our conditionings that the absolutely stupendous possibilities of this universe remain obscured for us. As an ‘individual’ we are a package of conditionings (acquired and learned). Even at the cost of sounding wacky I will say that these conditionings prevent us from flying or walking on water or doing any of the things that would be considered impossible. When all doubts (conditionings) disappear, you could jump of a multistory building without being hurt. (Theme of the movie Matrix and very true I believe.) This is a state of extremely pure doubtlessness which once attained cannot be marred by egoic noise and is beyond comprehension by the noisy mind. One can never ‘try’ to reach this state. It is an ever-present effortless state that is totally obscured by the ego in everyone.
    Why doesn’t somebody say that London does not exist in my imagination?
    The reason you haven’t met anyone or anything yet that may shake the foundations of your reality has to do with where you are at in your stage of evolution today. There may come a time in future when all these questions will be answered for you very easily. Going somewhere at the speed of thought has been talked about by many mystics and yogis and that is quite within the realm of infinite possibilities that our consciousness is all about. (If you don’t know anyone personally who does that, it is again what *you* are ready to know today that is the cause of it and not if it could be done at all.)
    I have always had this feeling of being timeless. It’s like either I’m standing still in time, or time is standing still for me.
    I think Navin, time is still. Our thoughts move and the mind gives the impression of elapsement. Movement is created out of absolute stillness. As one’s mind becomes more and more still, time starts appearing as a creation of the mind.

  20. Aditarya says:

    Exactly rudra…we dont know and actually we cant accept we dont know. Our ego doesnt allow us to to. All these theories are ok to discuss but we must be willing to accept that these are just speculations. We will be compromising the search for truth just for our ego satisfaction otherwise.

  21. Navin says:

    Dear XYZ,
    Thanks for the elaborate answers. I think I pretty much understand what you are saying. The Wachowski Bros had a great impact on me with their movie, The Matrix. It was indeed a path-breaking idea which revolutionised the thinking of many people across the globe. I wish some time in the future, I could get rid of my conditioning completely and be able to experience pure, effortless doubtlessness. I have observed that I have attracted quite a few events in my life by the sheer force of my belief. So I could say that I’ve had tiny glimpses of this state, but it is yet to become a permanent habit. It’s called Creative Visualisation or the Law of Attraction. But I am yet to perfect this art.
    I’m sure that we can create whatever we want with positive thinking and pure belief. But I have observed that for this to successfully happen we must keep the company of only positive people who share our belief, and stay away from negative thinkers. Coz a negative thinker can create obstacles for you by his/her mere presence. The biggest obstacle in the realisation of your desires is a conflicting desire of somebody else.
    In nutshell, you are saying that the truth will come to *me* when *I* am ready for it. I am ready.
    Cheers!
    Navin

  22. Abhiyan Rajhans says:

    If there was no begining, how could there be an end ? If we were never born, how can we die ?
    shekhar the answer is look into the circumference of a zero and place 2 dots…one marking as ending and one as starting….it will suggest that where we end is the begining of another cycle….where we begin is end of the previous circle…..so there is no end or begining it is how you look at it… it is shunya what our forefathers discovered….and shunya is the base of mathematics…..
    we must long for that shunya in our life …..

  23. XYZ says:

    Dear Navin, yes you are right about keeping away from negative people. I have noticed that negative people around me are somewhat like the ‘agents’ of the movie Matrix. They are almost hardwired to a destructive way of thinking and they feel very threatened when faced with a liberating thought or person. They must alter the entire environment then to the negativity that they feel comfortable in. This will often involve them provoking the good to become bad so they can constantly reaffirm their belief in a ‘bad’ world (by converting every environment around them to one of recriminations, insults and other negatives). I like to think that these are ‘agents’ of the dark forces 🙂
    I think that good is true force while evil (all that causes pain) is only (karmic) blockages to experiencing this true force. Therefore good will always prevail because it is the only force. It was immensely liberating for me to understand this. Once upon a time I saw no reason to strive to good because good appeared like it was a put on while bad was the normal state of being for me and for everything around me too. Today I know that the sheer beauty and scope of our consciousness is rooted in the most pure most beautiful most unimaginable ‘stuff’.
    Sorry I was a bit busy and didn’t get a chance to write back. Thank you for the discussion. More later.

  24. Aditarya says:

    Sorry if I am disturbing ur discussion but y shd good be afraid of evil. Evil shd be afraid of good. Y shd u stay away from the negative people…they will run away from u just like the agents ran away from Neo. Plz dont tell me that u haven’t reached that stage and so u have to keep away. If u haven’t reached that stage I m sure none of the ‘negative’ thinkers also have reached the stage of the agents. I m hoping for a better reason.
    Liberation is quest not belief. Liberation searches for questions and criticisms. Because more questions will only strengthen ur belief if u have the answers. Neo became Neo only after he started believing completely. He got the belief not by constant feeding but by questioning. Dont u feel that negative thinkers shd help u instead of making it more difficult?
    Luvs,
    Adi

  25. Riya says:

    Shekhar,
    Just the other day in the midst of fixing some object oriented errors, the very same thought crossed my mind about beginning and end and how just as we create new instances of an object – our existence too is another instance of the self.
    When one instance ends another is created – there is no beginning and an end .
    Everytime there is an error which is based on bad logic, that instance’s cache stores it and it may keep propping up in other instances too if the cache is not cleared – again see the correlation with our universe and how energy and thoughts stay or linger as a consciousness which with positive energy needs to be flushed out so that the negativity does not breed.
    Human emotions are like attributes of an object which creates, maintains, self destructs only to be created again. Our instance of the universe has a supreme consciousness which again is relative , what one may see or perceive may not be the only view of the instance , kind of like a multi-dimensional view.
    I don’t know if I am making any sense however wanted to share these thoughts and get some feedback on it.

  26. Rudra says:

    Riya,
    You identified something i can relate to , something that occured to me some years back.
    The beauty of the OOP architecture is that it can abstract out the properties of the object – instantiate them in the memory space.
    If you look at it , our ‘cache’ is our genetic code – out genes are the memories of our civilisational , and self evolutional experience.
    As we manifest into the physical time and age and existance , we also choose the apt geneetic meterial that will best reflect our consciousnessness , levels of potential joy attainable , satisfaction of desires , ability to acquire the highest knowledge , and the circumstances to express such a will.
    Obviously its a great deal more than what we see on the surface – i wonder if these can add into your OOP architecture of consciousness ? I hope its more than the outcome of a tired day of writing Java or C++ ?
    I did not however understand how ‘ positivity needs to be flushed , so that negativity does not breed’ – logically it doesnt make sense . am i missing something?
    We as beings have resource constraints too – and many times , an overloaded and badly scheduled consciousness tends to find little time r memory for the positive impressions to take hold. Multi-dimentionality and delegation of our embedded resources – something that can happen only with embedded ‘wisdom’ , are to me the same – would you agree ?
    Perhaps , perfection would then be a case of not working system of limited cache , but a dynamic system that can operate purely on dynamic stack and register management – we donot want to get stuck with burnt memories – only to avoid re-visiting the same level of the system . Do i make sense at all ?

  27. shekhar says:

    Riya and Rudra, am fascinated by your question, Riya and by your response, Rudra. I am pondering on these and when I find the emotional space. I will respond. shekhar

  28. Riya says:

    Shekhar,
    Thanks will wait for your response.
    Rudra,
    Thanks for the elaborate response.
    First : “which with positive energy needs to be flushed out so that the negativity does not breed.” – what I meant was With positive energy, negativity needs to be flushed out(something on the lines of stale data errors – move past the past, refresh with renewed emotions or energy or will again based on cache).
    Cache – being our genetic code is infact very very interesting.
    These thoughts hopefully are not an outcome of a tired day of debugging, this has occurred to me many a time and then there are experiences,impressions which lead one to think and question and question.
    Yes, ’embedded’ wisdom leading to multi-dimensional perceptions does make a lot of sense.
    I did not understand the dynamic stack, register management bit though in the context of perfection..

  29. XYZ says:

    Adi, there is a stage when negative people help you, in your learning process, but later on you overcome them by identifying negatives and staying away from them.
    Yes, you are right, the ones in discussion here (including myself) are certainly far away from the abilities of the wise Neo of the later part of the movie.
    Even later, there comes a time when good must war with evil and destroy it if it comes to that. These are just different stages of evolution I think.
    Discussion about good and evil will inevitably require discussions about interpretation of the two words. It is highly subjective on the one hand yet there is a universal agreement about painful and pleasureful experiences of the body mind that good or evil produces. A wise person knows good from evil in a natural untaught way, and doesn’t implement that knowledge in this world to the detriment of anything but a natural righteous order of things. That’s all I can say.

  30. Aditarya says:

    Riya & Rudra,
    I had sometime ago made this comparison in my mind. Its a little different from how u r viewing it. Here is how I viewed it and I was hoping if u could explain the same theory from my vision.
    1. the comp would be the universe.
    2. Programming language would be the species or may be environment.
    3. program would be the genes or the person
    4. memory (cache, variable or stored) would be our experiences and thoughts.
    5. output will be our actions that depend on experiences, thoughts & genes.
    But I still don’t get as to how it can answer the beginning and end question. Or are u making some other point?
    Luvs,
    Adi

  31. Aditarya says:

    Thnx xyz for the response

  32. Shashi says:

    I am wondering if logic really asks us to think in terms of beginnings and ends; and if it does…….whose logic? That ‘who’is forced to think about absolute time because of the ego. Whereas the logic of a sage would suggest the contrary, his logic would suggest there is no end and no beginning, everything is fluid.

  33. Navin says:

    Dear Aditarya,
    Regarding your post #24, quoting you: “y shd good be afraid of evil. Evil shd be afraid of good.”
    I’d like to make two points here.
    First: When I say that we should stay away from negative people, it doesn’t mean that we should be afraid of evil. Why create a vicious chain of bad karma, when you can simply avoid it by walking away from a negative person.
    Second: In my dictionary, the word “negative” is not synonymous with the word “evil”. If you meant the word evil as a religious concept, then I don’t belive in it. You might find it interesting to explore the meaning of this term on the Wikipedia site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil
    You say evil *should* be afraid of good. Let me confirm to you that evil *is* afraid of good. You will never find a truly strong (positive) person seeking out fights with the weak (negative). It is the weak who go looking for a fight with the strong. A truly strong person is secure in the knowledge that he/she is strong. He/she does not have to prove it to anyone. It is the weak who are insecure & full of self doubt and thus are looking for opportunities to get into a fight.
    If you are using the example of Neo and the Agents then get your facts right. Quoting you: “Y shd u stay away from the negative people…they will run away from u just like the agents ran away from Neo.”
    If my memory serves me right, the Agents did not run away from Neo. On the contrary, they always kept looking for Neo to try and get him into a fight. It was the continous effort of Neo and other *free* individuals like Morpheus etc. to avoid the Agents as far as possible.
    I agree with the following two quotes of XYZ :
    “there is a stage when negative people help you, in your learning process, but later on you overcome them by identifying negatives and staying away from them.”
    “Even later, there comes a time when good must war with evil and destroy it if it comes to that. These are just different stages of evolution I think.”
    And lastly, quoting you again: “Liberation is quest not belief.”
    Wrong. Liberation is not a process. It happens in a flash. It happens when you realize that all that you wanted to become, you already are. It happens when you realize that you were never chained, you were always free. You ARE free. It is just a matter of belief.
    But the quest is helpful in reaching that state of unshakeable, pure belief. The quest will lead you to a point where you attain that belief.
    Cheers!
    Navin

  34. Navin says:

    “As we manifest into the physical time and age and existance , we also choose the apt geneetic meterial that will best reflect our consciousnessness , levels of potential joy attainable , satisfaction of desires , ability to acquire the highest knowledge , and the circumstances to express such a will.”……Rudra
    Dear Rudra,
    Yes, the genetic material of an individual does reflect his/her consciousness. But does this genetic material which we have at the time of birth remain the same throughout our lifespan? I don’t think so. I reckon that as we go through different important events in our life, our gene structure keeps on changing (evolving or devolving).
    I also have a theory about passing on your best genes to your progeny. How is it that different kids of the same parents sometimes acquire vastly different levels of intelligence, consciousness, looks and other such qualities? (especially when there is a wide age gap between the siblings) Why are some kids lucky as to acquire the best gene pool and their siblings not as lucky?
    I think it has to do with the stage of evolution/devolution of the genes of the couple when they become parents. If you sire a child when your genes are in an evolved state, you’ll have a higher quality progeny than when you become parents when your genes are in a devolved state.
    Cheers!
    Navin

  35. Rudra says:

    Riya,
    Since Perfection is a subjective experience and cannot be expressed as a generic definition – it can only be surmised on a series of attributes .
    Considering the role of memory( which is taken so much for granted , we need to repeatedly slap our heads to wake up ! ) in existance of the instance , or the run of an application , it will not be hard to abstract it , so we can look at all Beginnings and Ends as existential realities only if registered by the memory.
    For some the memory is a burnt on first go – for them the existance of a dynamic rresource management is alien – resulting in the acknowledgement of the present state of existance as the only Linear Beginning and End – When the Controller inside us evolves into a dynamic one that uses flashable memory very sparingly infact , not at all , that is when the existential reality would metamorphosise into multi-dimentionality.
    Until that happens , we are stucck with Uni-dimeentional and linear experiences of Bignnings and Ends , and hence the imperfection. In that sense , Multi-dimentionality is not inherently realizable unless we evolve a Dynamic stack and register management that also responds dynamically , while at the same time flushing the memory on a scheduled basis.
    The whole state machine that will help decide the scheduling of the flushing and management of resources and the expression of the experience would be the embedded wisdom – something that will happen only by going through the Genetic Algorithm of many Filials.
    As it happens in AI or cybernetic design , we do have to start with a random seed as a starter , before we evolve and learn the rules of existance and adapt and grow out of the experience and fly in Multi-dimentional freedom – very much like a Butterfly metamorphosising itself from the constrained coccoon of evolution.
    Would I still make sense ?

  36. Rudra says:

    Shekhar ,
    Thank you for the response – would like to see your response to the abstract-broth riya and me are cooking !

  37. Rudra says:

    Navin ,
    Thanks for the message. The discussion is about abstractions – you are getting stuck with the specifics of one lifetime and what is learnt. Genetics does not explain everything to the last detail – Genetic code leaves a lot of scope for mutations and evolution .
    It does not mean , that future actions of an individual can be predicted with the DNA. On the contrary , the permutations leave a lot of things open.
    Genetics cannot explain Life itself ! That is the realm of Spiritual science – or we would just be manufacturable in a Genetics Lab. While we can play around with the egentic strcture perhaps , Life itself , and Spiritual memory cannot be captured completely by Genetics.
    Thats why Genetic structure can only be a cache of physical attributes and not the entirity of it -monly a reflection of the level of consciousness that can be physically expressed and manifested.

  38. NM says:

    Dear Shekhar Ji,
    Do you know about NKS?
    New Kind Of Science (NKS) by Stefen Wolfram.
    http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline/toc.html
    Read his book online… a good recipe to read and then cook.
    But I think there is one more New Kind of Science to come from you?
    Hahaha. Have fun.

  39. Riya says:

    Rudra,
    After couple of reads I kind of understood what you are saying although not completely. That is what abstraction is about …Thanks for taking time to explain.
    How is overloading connected in this premise of an object or self being instantiated, create/maintain/destroy then recreate again? Since it is the same function of the object but with different attributes – isn’t that multi dimensional?

  40. Riya says:

    Adi,
    I am looking at an abstract model of an instance with a multi-dimensional approach and existance rather than a linear model where, what you see is what you get. OOP concepts and their applications are the drivers in the discussion.

  41. Navin says:

    Dear Rudra,
    I think you completely missed what I was trying to say and totally misunderstood me. My post was NOT in context with your ongoing discussion with Riya. I just made a separate (out of context) point about how to choose an opportune time to become parents so that your progeny can be born with the best possible qualities. It was a tip for people yet to have kids. Nowhere did I say that “Genetics can explain life itself”. Neither have I said anywhere in my post that “future actions of an individual can be predicted with the help of his/her DNA”. I don’t know from where you got the idea that that was what I meant. Pls read my post again.
    Quoting you: “you are getting stuck with the specifics of one lifetime ”
    In absence of solid proof to the contrary, I am forced to believe that ONE lifetime is all we have. Right now, everything we say about what happens to us after we die and before we are born cannot be backed by any solid proof. If you have proof, show me.
    Quoting you again: “we also choose the apt geneetic meterial that will best reflect our consciousnessness”
    You say we “choose” our genetic material. Again, you are assuming that we exist as intelligent entities even before we are born as humans and have the power to “choose” our DNA. Is this assumption backed by any believable proof?
    This view of yours that we can “choose” our genes at the time of our birth is somewhat similar to what my Guru, Osho Rajneesh used to say. He said that as souls, we are able to see couples copulating from above and are able to choose the womb from which we will be born. Although I find this concept very interesting/fascinating, there is absolutely no proof that this theory is true.
    Cheers!
    Navin

  42. Aditarya says:

    Riya,
    Didnt get a word of what u said but it seems interesting….ha ha..thx though
    Shekhar,
    r u still looking for some emotional space or r u referring to a science dictionary….LOL
    Luvs,
    Adi
    (plz ignore my ignorance….actually i m a commerce student)

  43. Grey says:

    Wow you guys sure are abstractionists…..well in case u didnt realize life begins d day ur fertilized and ends when you die…..thats it…beat it guys……its that simple……will anyone please tell me why r we so obsessed with when life starts and ends, wen most of us dont even know wen life passes us by….we r more concerned of the past and d future that we miss d present……enjoy while ur here man…….its not for us to fathom the beginning or d end…….go tel d people you care about you love them…..TODAY……thats all we r sure of, isnt it?…………..

  44. Rudra says:

    Grey ,
    True to your name , in Indian thought , we have a name for your class of thinkers – ‘charvakas’ – who are basically nihilists and believe in the void – since they feel what they see , feel hear , is the only truth and nothing exists beyond that.
    it is understandable , considering where you come from , but in India , we have been blessed by the truest of seeking minds since thousands of years – in varied ways and a fraction of such revelations form the bulk of our supra-sensous revelations to a laregly blind mankind !
    of course , sharing and expressing Love is a nice thing , something thats very natural , but thats the only aim of life , but like with all forms of spirituality , there cannot be a debate on this , since to each his/her own !
    When your soul is hungry enough for such knowwledge you’ll be led to the Dining Hall of knowledge ( India ) by mother nture in some birth when you are ready enough !
    till then enjoy !

  45. Aditarya says:

    cmon Rudra…spirituality is not confined to India and hunger for knowledge doesn’t determine the country into which u will reborn….besides, I am sure Grey doesn’t believe in rebirth 🙂

  46. Aditarya says:

    Gray, what u r saying is correct…but what is the present and what is the future…if u plan what u should do today after an hour whats the harm in looking a few years ahead or may be after death….ne ways looking at the past or the future doesnt mean it will have to be at the cost of present…but i think we all agree that the present is more important since, as u said, that is all that we are sure of..cheers..adi

  47. PW says:

    What makes you an expert on Quantum Physics?
    Have you ever taken a Physics course?
    Both you and Deepak Chopra shoot from the hip like you understand science when you make these pompous claims about science.
    PZ Myers is a scientist. You are not.
    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
    People spend their whole life being obsessed about one or two areas of science. And they hardly assert their positions, let alone make pompous claims about anything in their area of research.
    You are mocking yourself when you talk about Quantum Physics.
    Deepak will get arrested sometime soon, just like Rajneesh did.
    You are such a wannabe intellectual.
    -PW

  48. Grey says:

    Hi guys thanx for d interesting comments….but i want to put my comments in d proper context….when i said ‘life’…i meant life as we know it………i too believe that all this wonderful creation had 2 start somwhere….there must b some force behind it……..but if you try to unravel these mystrys you r left confused in d end…..so what i meant is we should should thank God for this beutiful life and enjoy it without worrying too much about the past…..or future……but your right, human nature is too keep seeking………and you never know the path may be as interesting as the goal…….

  49. Aditarya says:

    Shekhar never claimed he’s an expert in science…U r making that impression from his comments…Instead of making personal remarks about somebodys scientific understanding u could have specified what is it in the comments that u dont agree with…I know nothing about Deepak but I believe he would be happy if he could do even a quarter of what Rajneesh did…U need to look beyond the four walls of ur imagination…

  50. George Kunnath says:

    Dear Shekhar,
    Life and death occurs every moment in one’s life. I would like to share my poem “The Moment” here.
    The Moment
    Life is a moment
    Death is a moment
    A moment between the two
    Everything in life is a moment
    We live in the past
    Reminiscing the good times
    Wishing for them to visit
    Waiting for the lost times
    We shed tears over lost days
    Brooding over the unchangeable
    Clutching on to the painful moments
    Sink deeper into the abyss
    We live life as if it is endless
    We live life in the future
    We save for tomorrow
    We plan for decades
    We fight for wealth
    We create monstrosities
    We seek power and control
    While nothing is in control
    We rarely watch the now
    We miss the present
    In pursuit of the future
    Forgetting all ends in a moment
    __________________________
    George Kunnath
    31 May 2005

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