At this moment do you percieve me dead or alive ? If someone tells you I have been in a serious accident. and till your sensory information asks you to percieve my state as one or the other, I could be dead and alive at the same time. So if all existence is imaginary, illusory, then you have effectively put me in a limbo, neither dead nor alive ! This thought was triggerd by Tushar’s post included below,
Schroedinger’s cat is a quantum paradox posed by austrian physicist Erwin Schroedinger in the 1920s. it is what is called a GENDANKENEXPERIMENT – german for a thought experiment.
in this thought experiment schroedinger proposed to einstein that a cat be put in a box. along with the cat, the box also contains a radioactive mineral and a vial of prussic acid (HCN). there is a 50 per cent chance that the radioactive mineral decays in say an hour. if the radioactive mineral decays, it emits a quantum particle which breaks the vial and releases the prussic acid and kills the cat.
so, at the end of the one hour, there is 50-50 chance that the cat is dead or alive.
now, this is where the fun begins.
unless the observer actually opens the box and checks, the cat is neither dead, nor alive… it exists in both states. it is alive as well as dead.
it is the observer who ‘collapses the dead-alive wave function’. he opens the box and finds the cat to be either dead or alive. and that determines the state of the schroedinger’s cat.
the event does not happen till you observe it.
in my post, i have used something i am working on for my script/graphic novel. i have stretched this quantum paradox to a metaphysical supposition.
it is thought that implies existence.
interestingly, while thought experiments are used as probes to speculate on the metaphysical implications of quantum physics, some cultures including our own, have always put a heavy stress on stretching the boundaries of existence through the explorations of the mind. they have a rich trove of tropes – yantras, mantras, koans… the stress has always been on pushing the limits of knowledge and going beyond the percieved reality. rationale… reason… explanation, these cultures have always believed to be superficial… in these cultures, the emphasis has been on freeing the mind of the limitation of senses.
however, since aristotle, reason took centerstage in certain cultures. here, ‘scientific’ approach was placed over speculation. it culminated in a Deterministic World View of the 19th century… The Age Of Reason was upon us with these cultures spreading thanks to the imperial conquests…
however, in the early decades of 1900, einstien forced the world to take a quantum leap. the special theory of relativity with its implications of time-space continuum and wave-particle duality forced a massive rethink.
it fuzzed up the boundaries between what is and what is not… however, the claims of the quantum world could not be experimentally verified as there were no machines powerful enough to test them. moreover, reason was simply not enough to deal with this paradigm shift.
in such situations, quantum physicists resorted to ‘thought experiments’. einstien explained his relativity in the form of a thought experiment where a cyclist comes riding at the speed of light and swerves around another coming in the opposite direction. he suggested shifting of frames of references to understand the implications.
when it came to wave-particle duality, schroedinger proposed this thought experiment to einstien.
curiously enough… there is still a lot of stress being put on the fantastical and ‘wow’ factor of thought-experiments and the focus is still on resolving a paradox through experimentations and micro and macro extrapolations… this has served as a treasure trove of possibilities for minds on the creative front… from time travel to event-horizons… alternate universes and space-time warps…
the ancient cultures which valued the metaphysical quest however, had a much subtler approach to these quandaries without obsessing with it… its answer to metaphysical dilemmas was simple…
does the dog have a buddha nature?
“mu”.
does brahman intrinsically know ‘brahma’ or is the one who knows ‘brahma’ a brahman?
“mu”.
“mu” is the perfect response to a coffy bite situation.. when an argument continues, mu makes its presence felt…
mu is the brahman state of ‘being’. neither right, nor wrong… just a probability cloud… a sacrosanct function full of choices that exists beyond the effect of observation… it may collapse in your thought and still stay untouched in mine…
This cat thing, is it the same as the tree falling in the forest and there is no sound because there was no one to hear it? What happens if you set up a camera in the box with the cat and hours later…then watch the film to reveal the moment the cat died and record the time when it happened, regardless of observing it or not…it will happen. Just my point of view. Is this all metaphorical or an actual experiment?
Here’s a quote by Erwin
“I know not whence I came, nor whither I go, nor who I am.”
I don’t know, maybe I’m missing the point here.
but…if we cease thoughts from entering our minds, does everything cease to exist? or does it require the entire living population for this to take effect?
Cinda
…I am both, here and not, dead and alive, in thought and not. No one can say for sure…and sure is never here, it passes continuously, like all things.
In language however, if we pay close attention and listen to the actual words we use…
the word “nothing” stands above all in trueness, whatever that means, anyway
Nothing will last forever
It means nothing
It has nothing to do with it
Nothing matters
Take nothing for granted
Nothing comes for free
etc…
This “nothing” appears to rule.
It may seem like “nothing” but I think that is what it’s ALL ABOUT…NOTHING.
Cinda:)
NOTHING/ALL:
the illusion is, that anything can be split.
object, observer, space inbetween,…table, tree, bird,…even individuality, talents, consciousness, non-consciousness,…mind, feelings, body…is all made of the SAME.
so were did the identity go? there is no. nothing. and at the same time: ALL.
subject change:
“golden age” – “age of horus” which now the world is changing into and is also called “golden age” was this title (although this time of elizabeth is known as g.a.) consciously chosen by you?
That’s what it’s all about…Nothing.
Right said, Cinda.
The discussion here which has continued here from the “Break a blade of grass” thread is this: Whether the reality we see truly exists or is it all an illusion?
The “reality” is made up of different realms. The physical realm, the mental realm and the spiritual realm. In my opinion, the physical realm truly exists. It is not an illusion. The trees that we see, the cars, the buildings, the big cities , rivers, mountains, planet Earth…..they all exist. This physical reality is the same for everybody…..we all see the same things. But the interpretation of this physical reality is not the same with everybody. The perception of the physical realm changes from individual to individual. So, it can be said that, in a way, the mental realm is an illusion.
Coming now to the spiritual realm. I don’t think many of us have gone into this realm in a conscious state of mind. We have all been there, though, in our dreams. It is difficult to say whether the spiritual realm truly exists or even that is an illusion.
Am unable to throw more light on the spiritual realm yet as I have not fully understood it yet.
Cheers!
Navin
One thing is missing here: the probablity of the existence of multiple observers.
Multiple observers are themselves an observational is/not dual state puzzle. Their probability increases the probability that the dual non-observed state will be broken. Their probability is part of the reason that the universe is both predictible and unpredictible.
Multiple observers are a probability cloud.
Mu.
love, Heather
Hi Shekhar (and Tushar-since this post was inspired by his),
This was a fascinating post. Something does not exist until someone witnesses it. It needs to be seen to be factual. But that doesnt mean that that event hasnt occured- it is already a fact. So from a human point of view it hasnt occured but in reality it has. The only constant here is the human being and I apologize for being stupid/making no sense. This topic is so fascinating my mind just went off on a nice long walk, trying to work this out in my head.
Wow! This is so ….I don’t know what to say.
Last week, I had the urge to watch Mummy and then The Mummy Returns…during the movie, they talked about a character, the Scorpion King and another movie named after this title. For some strange reason, I just had to go and rent this one too. The rental of the Mummy took me to a Blockbuster I had not rented from in years. They were not in my neighbourhood, but I ventured out because they had a copy of it in their store. So, I ended up getting the Mummy Returns and The Scorpion King there. While I was looking around, I also picked up the Da Vinci Code Decoded. I took it to the casher and she said I could get one more for 99cents…I paused and said okay. I went roaming around not knowing what Iwas going to pick up…my hand went to “Luther”, story about Martin Luther, 2003 Joseph Fiennes. Never heard of this man or his legacy. Took it home, and watched it late last noight, despite work today. It was so intriguing, the concept, the outside of the ball thinking…the power to transform what is into was is not…through words and deeds, interpreting one line of something to be either heads or tails and acting upon this intution for truthfullness and the right and urge to be free thinking…I was glued to the story…to say the least.
This evening, my daughter and I went to report interview to find out how she’s doing in her Philosophy class…we walked in the room and BOOM!!!!sitting right in the middle of his desk…”Martin Luther” the docudrama, I smiled and said…”I just watched that last night!”, he sai this? and we went on to talk about the story and its implications and such. After we left the school, I let out a srreeaakkking scream of laughter…oh the connectedness!
My point is, in the story of Martin Luther, he was sent some sort of message…he followed through with his intuition. His thoughts were dead on focused on what he knew to be the true line or path to follow, even if it meant losing his life over it…still, he was compelled to carry out what this message was telling him.
Shekhar, I’ve been doing a lot more bowing lately, if you know what I mean.
By the way Navin, I think it is ALL illusion. There were studies done to reveal the atom, when split down to the center…there be, guess what? NOTHING! Ahahaha…its too funny!
And yes, the power of thought is quite powerful indeed. Look how we can communicate to each other here about nothingness.
Cinda
I believe so that I can understand. For I believe this too, that “unless I believe I shall not understand” (Isa. 7:9).
There exists more than your mind can imagine, more than your knowledge can perceive and much more than your eyes can see….can we understand and distinguish the fine line between physics and metaphysics. Where does one end and the other start…are we walking the line in between? Or does everything lie in between?
Hey, this thing is still chuggin along. Today, my husband was sifting through some video’s to buy for our son and staring at him leaned up at the back of the pile was guess what? Yep, Luther! When he came home and was relating the story to us, before saying the name of the movie…my son blurts out the answer “Luther!!!” doesn’t seem like much, except, my son is six years old 🙂
TODAY, a new word came to mind for all of this…so here’s the coined term for synchronicity and connectedness…”connectcity”
Just a thought:)
Oh, today I was looking at a clip for an Indian Movie, the father was Navin and the son was Shekhar…Ahahaha “connectcity”
Cinda
LOL, Cinda!
Which movie was that? Where the father is named Navin and the son, Shekhar! ROFL*!
I don’t think that can ever happen in real life. I can only be an apprentice in Shekhar’s school.
Btw, I’m shooting tomorrow with the supermodel & actress Katrina Kaif for a channel V show called the V Goddess. It will be a sort of a televised date I’ll have with her and will be giving her a Tarot reading as well.
Cheers!
Navin
*ROFL = Rolling on the floor with laughter
Oh, I got it Cinda. It must have been the movie, Pareeneeta whose clip you must have seen.
Cheers!
Navin
YFIO…You figured it out Navin!
Father~son, many times in my life Navin, my own Dad (who was very much the wise and psychic, deeply into what goes past the six senses Being)…yet, I learned from him through personal experience as father~daughter…the knowledge, wisdom, teaching and exchanges of all sorts goes both ways. There was mutual exchanges…so deeply, even though he is gone now, I still feel his presence in me.
I’m not trying to make myself sound important, it’s just that in my present phase, I look to my kids for learning from them as well…I believe it is not a one way street…they are 6 and 17 and I know enough to know I know very little and I can learn just as much from them or more . In class, I never tell children I am the teacher you are the student…it just doesn’t make sense to do that. WE ARE ALL LEARNING from each other.
In any case, it’s quite a balancing act to remain humble while dragging along the ego too…I’m still no good at it ROFL 🙂
Tell Katrina I said Hi! and “may the force be with you” Navin.
Cinda:)
Okay, today I watched Da Vinci Code Uncoded, I knew nothing about, except by guess it had something to do with Leonardo himself…well guess who they mentioned in this docudrama? my good friend, Martin Luther 🙂
Can’t help but wonder…you know?
Cinda
How do we ever know, or can we ever prove, that we all see the same thing? Pictures that you draw or the words you write never be enough proof. What is the reality of anything, dead or alive, and how is it quantified? Who has done the math? Who has ever really seen the face of God? The tree I see in this moment is different in the next, and it is everything that everyone has ever seen and will see in the future. True reality is all living, dead, beginning, end… Infinate, and our senses, in one life, can never really precieve it…
can i even post here? apologies if i can’t, couldn’t resist, really interesting thread…
Went googling for a “probability cloud”–and ended up here.
Synchronicity? God rolling the dice?
Physics/religion/spirituality tells us we are allOne –all connected.
Thoughts are things–vibrating strings of matter.
There is haiku and poetry–because the observer gives meaning to the observed–and every moment it changes.
What is your eigenstate?
Google these,
icniVad, mdcclxxvi, the grand cosmic deception, shavers mystery, sheshna well, the 12 devils graveyards around the world, ycaripsnoc, electromagnetic triangles…these links will take you beyond the bloodline…?
!..(Be wise)..!
if the temperature of the Universe is infinitely hot at the big bang how hot is hot if nothing is cold ? if the temperature of the universe is never cold to absolute ? the universe is not ever in one or the other thing, the dust from the cosmic cloud that the our sun came from is the cat in the cloud ? or where did the cat start from ? why did dust become conscious ? and return to dust, don wreford
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There’s been a quantum leap technologically in our age, but unless there’s another quantum leap in human relations, unless we learn to live in a new way towards one another, there will be a catastrophe
I see your view! Interesting story as for me.