Excuse me, but where does this moral culture really exist, except in the fantasies of those that the media are hyping up as India’s moral brigade. In the small towns and villages of India ??? Where 10 times more women are raped and molested, abused, physically assaulted and mutilated for the mere crime of being a woman or a low caste ! There is no pub culture there. But there is a huge problem of alcoholism nevertheless.
Where young men are killed and hanged and young women are killed by their own families just because they fell in love and wanted to marry out of their caste. There is no pub culture there.
Alcoholism is a problem. No doubt. But there is more alcohol related domestic abuse against women in India by their husbands in their own homes than anywhere else. If any of the supporters of the moral policing would just care to g to one of the shelters for domestically abused women, they will know that the real problem with alcohol is not in the pub culture but at home.
And if India is progressing towards a country where men and women stand equal in jobs, status and financial independence, where we have had women as our Prime Ministers, Chief Ministers, and Cabinet Ministers, then why should men and women be treated as any different ? If drinking alcohol in a pub is immoral for a woman, they why is it morally OK for a man ?
I have seen too many families destroyed by alcoholism to be able to make a stand for excessive drinking. So what should one do ? Ban alcohol ? Lets get real. the very people who form the moral brigade will probably not go for that. Corrupt pockets are fed with that. State coffers rely on taxes on alcohol. And banning alcohol merely drives it underground, and gives the underworld goons a god sent opportunity to make money. Tourism collapses.
There must be checks and balances. But the answer is NOT to target the physically weaker sections of our people. Women. That is not moral policing. It is sheer cowardice.
And I cannot understand why the Chief Minister of Rajasthan has a problem with a girl and a boy holding hands ? He does not seem to have such a problem when the same hand raises itself in violence rather than affection.
False propaganda based on phony issues. Shri Ram Sena – Ram aka maryada purshotam. Followers of Ram chasing down young girls in broad daylight, attacking them, beating them. They’re holding up which maryada here? Which culture are they upholding? Certainly not the one associated with Ram.
It is a move for none other than gaining recognition. Muthalik is so happy that he is now famous, he could careless about the cause. He would desert his minions in a heartbeat, and he will, once he gets what he wants.
Pubs existed prior to the establishment of the Mauryan Empire, the empire which bound much of modern India. Certainly the protestors aren’t fighting against tradition are they?
We are discussing about ban on pub culture not a ban on the organizations like shree ram sena, are we living in a democracy or dictatorship. In Mangalore innocent girls and boys enjoying in a pub were beaten by some goons supported by the government and we all and our media is not discussing about the kind of punishment for these goons but about banning pubs.
Pub culture is not destroying the fabric of Indian culture, actually it is destroying because of these types of organizations and politicians who find there vote bank by using the emotional, and religious sentiments of people.
We understand that drinking is not healthy activity, but we have to honor a person’s right to choice.
I think Shekhar this whole hoopla is about preventing ftv culture to make inroads into countryside India.
‘Pub Culture’ is just a common phrase they are using without taking names.
Otherwise India has very ancient Mehkhana culture and Pubs have always been there.
***
Its this different approach to physical love between East and West. India has always celebrated Heer-Ranjha,Sohni-Mahiwaal and Laila-Majnu.India’s almost a pioneer in Kaamasutra,Ajanta/Ellora stuff and so wouldn’t need any tuition from the west on pleasures of the flesh and how to make the best of them.
We’ve all seen western approach to lovemaking and kissing. Does all that showbusiness,hurriedness and beastly attitude amount to much real joy,I wonder.
***
The real India,I believe is neither against responsible drinking nor elegant love.And too much tamas openly in the streets of our cities doesn’t really gel with our fabric although it couldn’t threaten it let alone destroy even if it tried.
We are discussing about ban on pub culture not a ban on the organizations like shree ram sena, are we living in a democracy or dictatorship. In Mangalore innocent girls and boys enjoying in a pub were beaten by some goons supported by the government and we all and our media is not discussing about the kind of punishment for these goons but about banning pubs.
Pub culture is not destroying the fabric of Indian culture, actually it is destroying because of these types of organizations and politicians who find there vote bank by using the emotional, and religious sentiments of people.
We understand that drinking is not healthy activity, but we have to honor a person’s right to choice.
You are right Shekhar, actually such issues are the bones in out politicians’ mouth which they can neither vomit nor they can swallow.
These people who beat women in the name of culture or religion they must have sung – ‘Saare jahan se accha hindustan humara’ in their life. I just want to remind them of one line in this – Mazhab nahin sikhata aapas mein bair rakhna….
Then why do these people fight on such useless issues which does no good to anyone.
I just want to reply such people in the oldest language so that they can understand what the culture means:
???? ????????? ?????????, ???? ?????? ?????: !
???? ????????? ? ?????????, ???? ? ?????? ?????: !
Translation – The god exists where you give respect to women,
The god doesn’t exist where there is no respect for women.
I was reading in the newspaper today that they are going to create problem on 14th Feb as that is a inherited western culture.
Actually, this is a wrong way for getting publicity. If they want publicity then they should start drive to prevent the usage of plastic bags, clean Ganga, Yamuna which has prominent significance in the Hindu holy books, helping poor to stand on their own instead of begging on some red light, teaching kids in small villages and towns, providing free medical help to needies and there is a huge list of such activities.
It is the growing goonda culture that’s destroying us more than anything else.
I am 100% there with you Sir, I mean its just so uncomprehendable.. Please Guide me on this If you and Me and a LOT of other people think like this..why is it that WE are not in power, we are not making national decisions,
I know its not as simple as I am putting it forward – but still its ridiculous, what am I doing?
What can I do?
How do these people reach such powerful positions..
Hi Shekhar,
Very thought provoking article. I am most disturbed by the talibanisation (sort of) that is creeping in in India. The answer lies in open and honest discussion and not in acting unilaterally against someone whom we see as the wrong-doer. May better sense prevail.
best wishes,
John
Yes,nice blog.
But we should also take stringent steps to punish all those fanatics.
Shekhar,
Pub culture in the UK is one of the biggest sources of public angst with governments trying hard to reign in tight.It is known to be source of public nuisance, teenage aggression, violence and ever rising teenage pregnancies.
Pub culture whether for men or women equally is something to be debated as much as say any other facet of alcohol abuse (domestic violence and caste politics). Is it lesser of the known evils? Does it matter even if so.That would be a a matter of personal judgement as much as the overall debate of where does ‘moral culture really exist’.
Ultimately it’s impact is only as strong as the weakness of the consumer.Any human weakness is only by extension an effective tool of exploitation and power.
I also beleive we are witnessing in India the emergence of new class divide – along the lines of the ‘urban affluent’ and the ‘aspirational lower middle class’. Pub culture is an easy visible weapon which symbolises this perceived divide.It is about a divide between ‘Liberal Indian’ v/s ‘traditional but repressed one’.
Let’s not fool ourselves into believing this is about alcohol or equal rights alone anymore.
Cheers
Deepak
Was the problem existing today or since ages ?
I am thinking :
Who invented money ?
Very well written Shekhar.
The main problem lies in the fact that we are still in the Victorian Era where prude standards of morality was imposed upon us by the British. Sadly, they have moved on, yet we are carrying forward their wasted ideas like morality and Two Nation Theory.
Very well written Shekhar.
The main problem lies in the fact that we are still in the Victorian Era where prude standards of morality was imposed upon us by the British. Sadly, they have moved on, yet we are carrying forward their wasted ideas like morality and Two Nation Theory.
Hello Shekhar,
No one allowed the self proclaimed Ram sena to take care of indian culture. Beating women is niither our culture nor lord Ram’s. Just bunch of idiots trying to get media coverage and free publicity. Also, abudance of young deprived people who can be easily motivated to join such campaings. More isabout to come on Valentine day.
Another thing. Have you thought of showcasing our agriculture and related agri-business with regards to India?
even a small documentary should work.
If ever you get to read this, please post your comment or write back.
WIsh you good health.
Sumadhur
Hello Shekhar,
Rightly pointed out, Its pathetic. I wonder why is it in India people always have so much time to protest/tackle irrelevant issues with no social importance what so ever. Be it Raj Thakarey issue or Shilpa Shetty kiss episode or this current issue? And these same people never would have time to protest regarding pathetic roads, uncollected garbage, corrupted bureaucracy and what not. There are hell of issues in India that need immediate attention, but these people have no time such issues. Some even go to an extent to files cases in courts on senseless issues.
May rational sense prevail.
Sree
What do u mean by Indian culture?
Indian culture had someone called Draupati,who married 5 brothers
Indian culture is the one which came out with Kamasutra
There is no culture in India. Sanskrit is vanished,people dont speak Hindi and prefer English, half of the population does not know the meaning of our NATIONAL ANTHEM,our National Animal tiger is almost extinct,our National Game hockey is not respected,our National Language Hindi is also not respected..
SO WHAT CULTURE THESE PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT?
INDIANS think they have monopoly over culture and use it as a tool to create havoc. Is it Indian culture to beat up innocent people?
Indian culture is sleeping in history books..
Ya, I am in complete agreement with your post this time. http://anurussell.blogspot.com/2009/01/ayyayooooooooo.html
The whole thing is so politically motivated that it is hilarious. And is it Indian culture to stand by and watch girls getting beaten? Is it Indian culture to raise your hands on women? What the hell ya. Total double standards…
Argh. I can complain on and on…Don’t want to eat too much of your space.!
Well said shekar. There is absolutely no pub culture. There are only vultures that are here to abuse women in the name of moral policing.
This is not about pub culture (whatever the definition of that means to each one of you). This is about power. Over “others”. So much easier to “otherise” than reveal your own feet of clay. That is all.
Indian women… and for that matter Indian men… cannot live normal lives of dignity (by standards of most of the civilised world) until the devi/devdasi categorization is banished from indian cultural mores. That is a huge factor in violence towards women.
Absolutely agree with you Shekhar.
I have friends who make sure their toddler daughter doesn’t see any on-screen kissing. but they do watch hindi movies with mild violence with her.
In our society it is completely acceptable for kids to watch violence, which is such an unnatural thing for civilized humans.
However, something that happens as a result of affection for a fellow human being, like a kiss or hug, is deemed unnatural and perverted?
We’ve got it upside-down.
I’m appalled that an incident that should make our heads hang in shame is getting justification from some quarters. The issue of pub-culture has nothing to do with the beating up of women as happened in this incident. If everything was to be resolved in such manner then might will become right. Isn’t it a worse culture than pub culture ? Have we lost other modes of communication that we have to beat our way to the submission of those we are meant to protect. ‘All Indians are my brothers and sisters’ and I will assault them in order to protect them ?
Pub culture is just one of the smaller issues highlighting the ugliness of a greater immorality – violence.
The core issue here is” Goondas beating Women.”Let’s punish this act first.Let all be focused on the emergence of this Goondaisim.Blacken their faces-
Pub culture can be debated but this crime needs to be addressed foremost.
Sumadhur #15 has got a point there.
Shekhar could lend his name to a film to generate awareness among the masses about the lopsidedness of the Doha debates.How India led by Kamal Nath and other leaders before him and leading other poor countries won the subtle international war on agricultural tariff barriers and protected the already suiciding farmers from what could have been a furious onslaught by foreign rich farmer’s competition.
(Especially now, when almost after 20 years of founding these WTO negotiation rounds the west is learning the protective role of the govt.s)
And how India fought for 20 years to stop the proverbial Trojan horse from entering Indian gates.Well, India was never Troy really.
***
“Humare desh mein… paisa sirf paisa nahin hai……”
I think we are mixing 2-3 issues here.
1. Moral Policing- Culture is not directed or policed. Culture is formed by the collective society. Policing is for kids not adults. No bloody hooligan can direct me to celebrate valentines day or not.
2. Pub culture – Should’nt be encouraged but each one to his/her own wish. So put heavy taxes.
3. Govts supporting violence of any kind, directly or indirectly – totally unacceptable and it calls for people coming out in the streets and protesting.
This logic doesn’t cut it. It is not about Pub culture vs Abuse of women in rural areas. They are 2 separate issues.
How is promoting Pub culture going to solve the latter? There are many scientific studies out there which clearly state that alcohol and tobacco have far worse effects on a woman’s body. If you really want to go deep, it also affects the genetics and hence the offsprings as well. And there is nothing like responsible drinking. Addiction can set in very quickly.
When did this disastrous switch take place in India..where the elderly guardians of society, instead of shunning such lifestyles, are actually promoting it? The monkey human mind will create an addiction to anything as long as it finds a fertile environment. In the name of freedom, progress and liberalism, the delusional are creating this fertile ground.
And with the sorry state of affairs of law and order in India, it is a sure recipe for disaster, the way these international corporate alcoholic peddlers have penetrated the market with their fancy Baccardi and Grey Goose parties..with the blessings of the ‘progressive’ bunch. And alcohol often opens the market for other vices. Do not for one second think that these people you call ‘goons’ are ignorant of all this. This virus is spilling from the urban to rural areas quite fast.
Santra/Hooch and alcoholism is rampant in villages. Shouldnt these men be taken to task for beating their wives? Rather than women who visit pubs?
Im shocked by the attitude of the government, who have prefered not to take any action on the culprits.
Id prefer seeing better clothing for women in the songs they screen. Kids cannot visit pubs but they can view material not suitable for their age on TV anytime they switch it on.
Sir, I want to add some more observations and frustrations to my post.
I happen to talk to my colleagues today and im disappointed by their narrowness and selfishness. They are in their 20s and as you have pointed out in your other article, they channel their frustrations (previous heartbreak or cant date a girl) by supporting such views. Person A said, Mangalore incident was nothing; he was just not aware that girls were physically abused. Person B said Valentine’s day shouldnt be observed since its against our culture.
Also Person A had his engagement broken recently and Person B had a heartbreak in his college. All their BS and frustrations about girls just showed up today.
@ brahmastra
Pub Culture = Alcoholism, Addiction, Drugs, Prostitution, Destruction of peace loving society, bad influence et al
You said that in your comment in another post of SK. So women shld not be allowed to indulge in any “lounge” bar or pub activities- I think was your surmise
Progressing this debate fwd i.e Abuse of women in rural areas / domestic violence, also does happen under the influence of alcoholism.
No?
Grey Goose or tharra doesn’t matter – they both provide the same sadistic kick (literally speaking).
Political will or lack of it, is one common woe, we all can hang our sorrows on BUT isn’t it time we as a society learnt or re -learnt some basic values e.g. discretion, respect, dignity, pride, equality, restraint? How much more wrong has to happen in our world for us to hang our heads in shame and acknowledge that correction?
I feel very defeated with these debates:(
On this, we had a major tiff at home. Rare.
The parent, at 85, is pretty liberal.
But I had to stand up for my right to have a cup of tea at a chai lari or a pub if I so wish.
Or to drink what I want to. Don’t tell me what to do.
If the contention is that young people meet and dance, which is “Oh my God, BAD” then you ought to outlaw Navratri garba as well.
see in indian culture there is never a problem in men…hypocrisy to the max
I wouldn’t say “destroying” but certainly reduces the vanity of attending a classical music program in younger generation. If entertainment is to relax your mind and body after a hard day of work, I would like to clam down and listen to some thing classic than loud music, smoke, alcohol in a PUB! Jeeez … I am getting OLD!
‘we must become the change we want to see’
change 1: Eradication of gap between rich and poor.
– Sharing opertunities is the way to pull underneath people to next deserved level.
change 2: Take over the moral promotion on our own shoulders.
– We are rising but keeping the morals aside in our day today life.we need to change in this.
– commons should go speaking and writing their morals rather the groups taking it on their hands.
everyone of us need to realise our position, once u find urself in good position, then feel responsible that u are previledged to start helping by sharing.
when house owners dont pay tax for the income from their tenants, how is he a respectable one to his underneaths.
we farm, cook the food we want for us. likely, we make the society we want to live in.
– guru
Everyone including Shekhar misses a very valid and important point. Shekhar only rants about what is happening in the villages etc etc…the woman were beaten up by drunkard husbands and so and so forth. Moral policing – is there such a thing ?…and if there is such a thing as Moral policing then logic tells us there must be an opposite – the other side of the coin – Amoral policing…and that means if Ram Sena were the Moral police (as all here agrees) then all against them must be Amoral police meaning most who have posted their comments here.
The real point is not fight between Pub Culture and the Moral policing (Ram Sena) but a fight between Have’s and Have not’s…Shekhar clearly misses the anger of anti-pub sentiments and slips even deeper when he compares Pub Culture and village culture…as if he is preaching to us that Pub is better place to get pissed, pregnant, addicted and de-humanised than Villages – villages are boring for such activities and pubs are colourful – a better culture to adopt! He even tries to convince with his own statistics and morality – “Where 10 times more women are raped and molested, abused, physically assaulted and mutilated for the mere crime of being a woman or a low caste ” and with a bang he enters Caste debate…He talks about equality of men and woman…Even the society he comes from (present life) does not have equality for both genders – equality stops at the doors of pub, dance floor/discotheques, bedrooms and it does not go beyond .I can go on and on analysing Shekhar’s blog and mind set.
There one issue we urbanised ‘super’ Indians fail to see or understand and is that half the Indian population (more than half a billion = 10 United Kingdoms) earn less than a dollar a day (IMF statistics not mine) and middleclass (I call the mindless class think they are the new rich and NOT INDIANS who think the one dollar earner do not exist. The second is that we are sprinting towards a lifestyle that even the Europeans fail to comprehend. Only Seven years ago ‘boyfriend & girlfriend’ concept was not there…Rs 500 pizza was never heard off…thousand rupee cocktail was not bought by urbanites…condoms were only for the married…’bastard’ concept did exist…’in relationship’ was never practised …But before someone shouts – let me concede above mentioned privileges did exist but were available to handful of Super Super Indians but now nearly 20 % have this privileges and double this die to get into this lifestyle…
Indians from this ‘super’ society wants the new found lifestyle to replace a lifestyle that has been with us for centuries…’Narrow mind, Desi, Gamad, Gamar are labelled for those who do not support ‘the speed of change’ – may be not against the concept per say…Some weakling dig up KamSutra to justify his opinion…but not having done research later finds that KamSutra was NOT Indian Indian culture but a single dynastical culture limited and to a confined a region…Someone compares Maikhanna to Pub…what ? what a thoughtless naivety one can display…Maikhana was creative and living and gave us probably the best Ghazals and Thoughtful personalities …Indian Pub is too farfetched for any such comparison…some has quoted from Sanskrit again to justify their lifestyle…all justification is futile until we take a back step and observe where we are heading to and whom are we leaving behind…
The Pub (word come from Publican & Another term commonly used was Free House) culture in England used to be a respectable place though diminishing now …not all came for alcohol…it served pub grub too and entire family (except under 18’s) enjoyed. My visits to pubs in India were totally obnoxious experience… flirt, drug and where only the hips didn’t move but rest of the body moved…this is what one youth told me meant ‘respect’ for others…PUBLICAN culture can never be part of Indian lifestyle. Pub has distinctly another meaning in India…
Finally – Indians have never been good at copying – I am sure Shekhar would also agree with me here – like Bollywood (in fact I coined this term in 1988 (unless some one beat me to it) for my unpublished novel)messing up copied Hollywood movies the new Indian generation are messing up their own life by inventing a new ‘vulgar’ society they compare it with western culture…not knowing there is no such thing as western culture…In England, at least, Call Centre drainage do not get clogged up with condoms every night…or even one night…may be England has better disposable mechanism…or a different culture…???
If we slow down and let people take a breather and let the entire nation gradually digest, understand and accept the new trend…we surely can win over more people and have pub culture or any change in culture but else…watch out for more potent attack from potent and precision prone Naxalites…Ram Sena simply is a trailer….if right failed the left will finish the job…
Utho Jago…Get up..wake up
God Bless.
For Navin, Brahmastra and all those who are anti-pub and anti-westernisation, I have one question to ask – Does being anti-something mean you should beat up the person disagreeing with you? The debate is not for or against pub culture. Shri Ram/Laxman/Hanuman/Shiv whatever sena could have got a few sane ears had they had put forth their point in a civil manner. The protest is against these three things
1. Using violence and abuse to make a point.
2. Taking law into their own hands. Actually, they don’t even have law on their sides.
3. Singling out women for the abuse. Please note, I would have protested even if they had singled out the men.
In any society, culture is something that is extremely fluid and organic. Moral policing can never alter it. On the contrary the very things targeted thrive and if outlawed they thrive underground. Culture is the collective expression of millions of people and is born of complex equations and parameters. It is immature to even think you can alter it by force.
I agree there is some merit in the tradition that tries to keep women off addictive substances. The chances of them passing off some of the effects of substance abuse to the progeny is strong.
Yet, the issue here is not that. The issue is about individual freedom and of equal freedom to both men and women to choose their path in life. No one has the moral right to deny them that. And definitely noone has the right to punish them for something **they** perceive as a sin.
All these incidents simply are signs of an increasingly intolerant world where every idiot thinks he needs to control the way others behave.
Talking of this whole ‘morals’ issue that a lot of people on this thread are harping upon, I am reminded of a memorable line by Sahir Ludhianvi from the 1964 film Chitralekha (which actually provides a great angle to this discussion).
The line is
Yeh paap hai kya yeh punya hai kya
reeton par dharm ki mohar hai
har yug mein badalton dharmon ko kaise adarsh banaaoge
What is a virtue and what is a vice? It is all relative.
Ritu – like many you too miss the point – Where did I say I am anti-pub ot antiwestern ? See the last paragraph of my post:
“If we slow down and let people take a breather and let the entire nation gradually digest, understand and accept the new trend…we surely can win over more people and have pub culture or any change in culture but else…watch out for more potent attack from potent and precision prone Naxalites…Ram Sena simply is a trailer….if right failed the left will finish the job…”
I was born abroad and I live in UK. I am a Sanatani & condone violence of any form…even if I have hurt anyone with my posts I am being violent…I concede that…
The problem is as always — as humanity has shown through out the evolution of humans – the fight is and will remain always between the HAVE’s and HAVE NOT’s…and that is the truth.
Religion, tradition , beliefs and whatever has no place…Have Not’s has always brought revolutions…violently or non-violently (as we are doing by debating)…But the onus is on the HAVE’s who ignore the HAVE NOT’s…Pub culture is only one small issue…
I hope I have made my side clear…But I wish to know from other poster what they mean by ‘Western Culture’…I have lived most of my life abroad and I seem to have no concept of ‘Western Culture’…Please help..
You reap what you sow…
God Bless
Will someone define pub culture?
To me it means, meeting my friends in the evening at a place where there is good music and discussing about the nothingness of life over a glass of cocktail/mocktail. And at times getting introduced to friends’ freinds. It helps everyone in networking.
Is that bad, or the nicest way to know yourself as well as more people around.
I agree alcohol is a part of it, but thats about individual choices. Banning is not the solution.
For example, gujarat is a state which has banned Alcohol and statistic say it is said that gujarat is the state with highest consumption of alcohol.
This bit about western &Indian culture is crazy.. who decides what is right & what is wrong, life & times have changed, priorities have changed. I only believe that these goons have the audacity to behave so recklessly only because of the media, is it worth discussing these good for nothings?some idiot interviews miuthalik today & that nutcase gives some explanation about ill effects of women drinking & child birth & the closing comment is that one cannot debate muthalik medically!!! Excuse me Mr. journalist!!! there are far worse effects on children by men smoking, womanising drinking, will you stop them? why make such irresponsible statements? why are there no guidlines for journalists?
Well said Ritu and Chaitali!
Navin, you too are not very off the mark but the women too have been HAVE NOTs of a kind for a long time now – in terms of their social inequality vis-a-vis men. They too want to enjoy the dawn of their individuality now that they also have become aware of this. So rather than use force a negotiated midway needs to be found out.
Ritu, not over pondering on what you say but let me say there is nothing new in what you ‘naively’ say and, unfortunately, smell of ‘arrogance’ is clearly evident in your ‘contradictory’ argument.
Let me clarify:
You say:
“Culture is the collective expression of millions of people and is born of complex equations and parameters. It is immature to even think you can alter it by force.”
My Question:
Which ‘millions’ you are talking about? As overwhelming ‘millions’ do not agree with your ‘speedily’ changing ‘socialscape’ (my word) of urban life. Is it not a contradiction to accept ‘Culture is the collective expression of millions of people’ and in the same breath to say ‘The issue is about individual freedom and of equal freedom to both men and women to choose their path in life.’…isn’t there an element of confusion in your point of view, as I feel the present generation of India is indeed a confused lot…
You say:
“All these incidents simply are signs of an increasingly intolerant world where every idiot thinks he needs to control the way others behave.”
My point:
Let us change few words in your ‘arrogant’ argument and see how it sound & hope you understand what I mean as the other side also has their view…
Now see the changed meaning (Capital letters are my words):
“All these incidents simply are signs of an increasingly ‘LIBERAL’ world where every idiot thinks he needs ‘NO’ control over the way ‘HE/SHE’ behave.’
Individual right & freedom in Europe (some call it the ‘western culture’) has killed the society to such an extent that dead neighbours are found weeks later when the dead body rots and the neighbour is unable to bear the rotting body smell…Yes – don’t shout – I concede we have a growing society who are following this ‘failed’ path and call it ‘fashion’ or ‘western culture’.
Individual rights and freedom ceratainly has place in any society but it is not an ABSOLUTE…as nothing is absolute…even our life has an end…
GOD Bless
Hi Navin,
Let me take your points one by one. Unlike you I will resist the temptation of making any judgement on your generation and it’s level or lack of confusion! :). My responses are preceded with the label on my name ‘Ritu:’
Point 1
———————————–
You say:
“Culture is the collective expression of millions of people and is born of complex equations and parameters. It is immature to even think you can alter it by force.”
My Question:
Which ‘millions’ you are talking about? As overwhelming ‘millions’ do not agree with your ‘speedily’ changing ‘socialscape’ (my word) of urban life. Is it not a contradiction to accept ‘Culture is the collective expression of millions of people’ and in the same breath to say ‘The issue is about individual freedom and of equal freedom to both men and women to choose their path in life.’…isn’t there an element of confusion in your point of view, as I feel the present generation of India is indeed a confused lot…
————————————————-
Ritu:
I see absolutely no confusion or contradiction in the statement. Infact I think the equality of men and women issue is completely unrelated to the culture issue.
As far the individualism is concerned, a culture is formed when an entire population or a large section of people **individually** start thinking/behaving in a certain way. For instance it is culture in US to have super-bowl parties. How did it come about? A couple of friends got together and decided it was fun, some more people also thought it was fun and did their own little party and soon the whole idea caught on so much that it becomes a tradition. The people have of their free-will decided to do what they are doing.
POINT 2
———————————————-
You say:
“All these incidents simply are signs of an increasingly intolerant world where every idiot thinks he needs to control the way others behave.”
My point:
Let us change few words in your ‘arrogant’ argument and see how it sound & hope you understand what I mean as the other side also has their view…
Now see the changed meaning (Capital letters are my words):
“All these incidents simply are signs of an increasingly ‘LIBERAL’ world where every idiot thinks he needs ‘NO’ control over the way ‘HE/SHE’ behave.’
Individual right & freedom in Europe (some call it the ‘western culture’) has killed the society to such an extent that dead neighbours are found weeks later when the dead body rots and the neighbour is unable to bear the rotting body smell…Yes – don’t shout – I concede we have a growing society who are following this ‘failed’ path and call it ‘fashion’ or ‘western culture’
——————————————–
Ritu :
Honestly I don’t see any relation between the individualism of the west and my point. I do not disagree with you that any society needs control. But who decides how much is right? In a free democratic society the majority decides and once it is decided and has become law, the only people who have a right to impose those controls are the law enforcers.
In the situation we are discussing one set of people gets up and abuses another set of people in the bid to apply controls that are NOT sanctioned by law.
I do not see your connection between the isolation of western societies and the incident we are discussing at all. I would appreciate if you could elaborate on that one.
Ritu,
I had posted something like this in the SlumDog topic, and it fits in well here:
The genesis of the urban middle-class pseudos, such as many here, lies in their alienation from the roots. They come with an inherent dislike for the Indian way of life because they see it through dark material-oriented glasses built with inexposure to the ‘real’, and over-exposure to the ‘unreal’ glam from the other side coupled with their own inherent tendencies..the grass looks so much greener. They pretend and put up a facade of misguided ‘sophistication’ in the guise of progress and advancment. They develop fake english accents, dress up in ways that provoke lust in society, spread the virus of substance-abuse or ‘Pub Culture’ where women, the pillars or society, are ‘okay-ed’ to put all kinds of toxins in their body that are detrimental to their health and that of their offsprings, and lead to fragmented families, and overall – indulge in ways that come to mean that the only “progress” these pseudos stand for is destruction of the grounded nature and rich culture of Indian society.
Pub culture has already introduced the fangs of addiction and other vices into areas of society such as women and children that previously were untouched by them. This is not a moral judgement, plain objective facts.
So my basic question is: how are these pseudos who promote such a Pub Culture better than the ‘goons’ who attacked those women? What freedom and progress are you talking about? What women’s rights are you upholding by providing them with false guidance and taking them on a self-destructive path? I think these ‘goons’ do a heck of a lot less damage, if at all, by slapping around a few people that ‘happened to include’ women.
The only sophistication is zen..being grounded in the self. To a large extent, people in the rural areas are a lot more grounded, and hence the attraction towards their simplicity and earthiness. The wide spectrum of misinformation being spread here by you and others for argument’s sake that rural areas are ripe with alcohol and women abuse is despicable. The rural parts of India are still relatively rich with innocence and culture as compared to the urban areas. And actually, on a deep level, there is nothing as women abuse and all that crap..everyone gets exactly what they need every second to evolve..including being an ugly pseudo.
India, collectively, is still the most grounded, and hence, sophisticated country in the world. But this is fast changing with these pseudos and their equally messed up political ally, the UPA, putting an ego veil over the real beauty of India. All paths lead to the source though.
In lighter vein…
In the Age passed
most of the men
had abundant of inner shakti
forcing some of them
even to play the marital infidels
Taking benefit of their helplessness
women had all the time of the world
and the world itself all ears
to put them to shame
here there and everywhere
Vow be to the changing times…phases
now the boot is on the other leg
yin is on the increase yang on the decrease
women will be forced to act like men
may be not to the level of infidelity
yet enough in a way to receive back
some of what they gave in their time
Yesterday’s Switri sena
is today’s Ram sena
nature abohars imbalance
for a long time
Harb
And I have to emphasize that freedom is highly, double-highly overrated in its propaganda today. Today it means freedom of the mind to indulge in any materially-addictive patterns whatsoever.
When you say that a woman should have the freedom to drink herself silly, you are leading her mind to addiction. It is a ridiculous paradox that you are actually enslaving her mind than giving it freedom. This is where the entire western philosophy of ‘freedom’ bites the dust. True freedom only comes when the mental patterns are dissolved, and one is acting from the deep self.
#44
And forgot to add
even while making noises
the men will have to suffer
the silent pangs
as women of the past suffered
Harb
PS:
Knowledge makes one sad
more the knowledge
the sadder one is
untill he/she reaches a stage
one with sort of their spiritual center
and comes to realize
things will go on like this
in cycles
and thus keeps his calm
Strangely enough
when he/she learns
to keep his calm
in this way
the things stop going awry
at least for him
Why wouldn’t those who can, flee the country?
They say if you have problems with the way the country is run, take to politics. But it is not for everyone to take up politics. Politics is not for everyone to pursue. It is extravagant to expect maintenance of law and order in this country, let alone good governance. We are increasingly regressing. And its heatbreaking.
The wide spectrum of misinformation being spread here by you and others for argument’s sake that rural areas are ripe with alcohol and women abuse is despicable.
———————————–
Sorry to barge in but, the point was visiting a pub doesnt mean you are wayward or corrupt morally. If its the alcohol; then why is only pub the point of focus? As you have pointed out rural areas are not THAT BAD; pubs arent THAT BAD either.
Brahmastra
Please I think you should understand we women have a mind of our own, no one can lead us to anything. I have been born and brought up in this pub culture surrounding. And I do understand what is good for me and what is bad for me. I dont drink alcohol. But I dont impose my beliefs on others. I am comfortable not drinking, if someone wants to drink I wont stop. Its their personal choice.
And Arent there shaarab khaanas in villages or dance bars around, just the word ‘pub’ culture is targeted.
Whether or not pub culture is bad for Indian fabric has to be decided by people and no rogues can decide for them. All this Natak by some hooligans is just piece of crap ideology and these guys should just be jailed..
So far, the middle class women have largely stayed away from alcohol. With this generation of girls growing up drinking alcohol, will be the mothers of the next generation.
Recipe for troubled families as we have seen in the US very often. Again not all but a significant percentage.
Imagine, waking up for school in the morning and mom is not to be seen in the kitchen. Where is mom ? Where is my breakfast ? Well, mom got drunk last night and is having a terrible hangover.
Freedom and equality is important but asserting equality by taking up drinking is just being foolish.
Well, I am not supporting what Mutalik did. He had no business to get physical.