Here is a comment by Brahmshastra, which I would like to open out for discussion. Bad films (with some good ones too) , and a level of moral corruption throughout every activity in India (including corporate India, Indian justice system, Indian administration system, Indian political system, Indian religious systems) does not justify harrassing young vulnerable girls that are trying to become part of the economic system in India rather than sit at home. It does not make hooliganism moral. But perhaps Brahmsastra has his own point when he says of Indian Cinema and the Indian corporate sector, which we should discuss :
“And of course, the hooliganism you talk of excludes the progressive bunch of Bollywood directors, corporations and such who are ‘abusing’ women on a daily basis by taking advantage of and steering them in one way or the other into promoting lust and materialism in society, and are making all this possible with money from the underworld, while probably cheating on their taxes and engaging in bribery of government officials on a daily basis. Morality is a double-edged sword.”
this is a view of a person who has frog in the well mentality. i believe women going out and working or their potral in movies or other art form has nothing to do with they abuse, its mentality and attitude issue and also the legacy of male dominated society. wearing modern clothes or going out to work does not save you from abuse, most cases of abuse get un noticed or un reported happens in confide of home or so called family network.
Frankly i have stopped reacting to people like Bhramastra, there is no hope here. we better spend our time and energy with people who are at least open to other point of view accepting or rejecting is other thing.
Dear Shekhar:
It will probably take a considerable amount of time before a majority of the Indian populace will be at ease with the modern concept of a capitalist society. The chasm between moral precepts many centuries old and the liberties a young and budding democracy impetuously demand is still deep and cannot be bridged without clashes that are taking place in your country. Tradition is in a duel with modernity. It is almost impossible to expect the forces of intolerance to quietly fade into oblivion and accept the inevitable societal changes sanguinely and acquiescently. I believe the type of hooliganism India is experiencing goes much deeper than the mere senseless acting out of violence. I think there is a moral self-righteousness at play that cannot accept that beautiful young girls want to escape the stifling and rigid moral imperatives of an era they have no connections to anymore. Both, perpetrators and victims may not be able to clearly formulate their roles in this but both instinctively know that they are part of profound changes and each respond in distinctly different ways. Forces have been set in motion that will ultimately shake the foundations of ancient traditions and large responsibilities lie with those who are on the forefront of this movement. I truly think that Brahmastra is right on the mark when he lambastes the film industry as being primarily interested in materialism rather than seeing their role as a conscientious and guiding influence on a society that needs to walk before it starts to run headlong into a new era.
Best regards.
Horst
I think anyone trying to preach morality is a moron. I should be able to lead a decadent lifestyle and have no virtues, but if I am happy and am not harming anyone, its no body’s business to preach me (no I’m not that bad 🙂 )
When there is no contest of moralities, things become incomparable, which easily cuts down 99% of the conflicts.
But am hopeful, sooner of later, the fad of self-righteousness will fade away.
“Wish we had an ideal world”.
But, until this world becomes ideal, we need to live in reality. Everyone is the master of their own choices one makes in life. Just that many of us become the slave of their choices to achieve something. In the process of achieving, we lose those things only which we wish to loose, whether its money, relations, conscious, self esteem, family, feedom… its a personal choice.
And this is called living in a democracy….
In the definition of democracy, every one has rights and duties. The people who encroach upon others rights are called hooligans and for bigger encroachments, they become gangsters, and senior most become terrorists.
When Ramayana was shown on TV some could see Sita in it others only saw the actor who played Sita.I don’t know who was wrong and how.
And Horst maybe modernity too needs to be tolerant about tradition.I am for a comfortable sythesis or fusion if you like.Believe you me, many of these blindly pro-modern thoughts and mindsets would have changed a lot by the time this once-in-a-century global recession/could-be-depression is over.
In traditional mythology/history too there was a concept of Apsaras(nymphs) who were not born for marriage but glamour, amourous grace,dance ,music, etc etc and they were proud of it all because it was their destiny (or in todays language it was in their genes to be so).Even in medieval India there were the ‘nautch girls’. Young beautiful girls can judge for themselves who is who and what for.And they are also judiciuos enough to find out what ftv or the Raam Senas etc. stand for.
Moderity is too young and has too many generalisations.It paints many diverse things with the same thick brush.It could be
more humble and learn from the details of thousands of years of findings of the ancients which were chistled into harmony with the natural scheme of things.
Yes democracy is important but it too has as many flavours as different regions. We should not make the mistake of thinking that the glorius revolution(1688) of the Brits or the French enlightenment and US independence charters(18th Century) are the “Forces that have been set in motion which will ultimately shake the foundations of ancient traditions” built over a period of some 5 or 6 millinea.What really is happening is, If I may correct you, that various traditions like one of ours only imbibe what any other civilisation has to offer which will help us evolve further still in the ever evolving global environment. Not that we have any doubts about our own past which some recent savagery and lecturing of a few(2)
Centuries could take advantage of.
We just want to accomodate,tolerate,find and enjoy the ‘unity in diversity in the global culture’.Even at times appeasing as an old and wise man would a young child in puberty showing his muscles to the old man and asking him to wrestle with him. Or a young teen girl very recently aware about her feminity and trying to flaunt it a bit just to reassure herself and may be catch a little attention.
***
Besides films are films and real life is real life. Films justify nothing in real life.They if good provoke a debate and if bad get ignored.
Only the rarest of the rare(classics) give a clear-cut evolutionary quantum jump to the collective human conscience.
Shekhar,
The problem is corruption on the whole. There is no difference in terms of who would cheat on taxes or who would bribe officials. Man, woman and the transgendered all do the same.
As for women going to work and wearing modern clothes, i find no reason to debate why they should have any sort of amendments or restrictions on it. Hypothetically lets ban all women from going to work and the only piece of clothing allowed is a saree. That logic makes men wear dhoti’s only and no trousers/shirt. I bet my ass, no man would want this.
It’s all hypocrisy i say. Our educational system is completely outdated and unjust. We impart value oriented education to only a handful who have the money to acquire it. The other study in govt. schools that have teachers and administration who don’t give a rats ass about their students.
So what we have here is a permanent mental divide. The ones that did not get good education and did not make the big money are pissed off looking at the ones that did. More importantly they are irritated by women (whom were considered lowly and under the man by our olden day society) earning more money and having access to more of them goodies in life while they can hardly make ends meet.
You can only be as happy as the most saddest person around you. By that logic, the ones under try and pull the ones on top to the very bottom with them. The classical indian crab story.
Justifying one with the other was not the heart of the argument. Where are the voices of the so-called women’s rights activists and these progressive folks when there is so much camouflaged abuse going on everyday, which IMHO, is worse than what those ‘goons’ did by slapping around a few girls? As in a majority of cases, the emotional cries of ‘abuse’ are from people who have personal issues in need of any channel that comes along to voice their stifled problems, even though the ground reality of the incident is different.
I think Horst has said it with crystal clarity.
However, there is an abundance of ‘Last Samurais’ in India who just need the right leadership. This virus of greedy capitalism may reach its peak soon without co-operation from the environment and rise in spiritual consciousness.
Shekhar,
Lets define terms here :
‘Bad Films’ : do you mean b-grade films , of films with provocative item numbers, or films that give people ‘ideas’ they neever had , or films that promote a male dominated narrative , or films made by you(kidding)?
‘Harrassment’ : do you mean constant nagging , as in what to wear , how to walk , whom to talk to imposed by the immedaite family of an Indin girl ? do you mean ‘educated-but-drunk-today’ guys accosting a girl in a pub ? do you mean acts of feeling up the private parts in crowdy places like a bus ? do you mean people who impose ‘casting couch’ on aspiring actresses ? do you mean a bunch of social activists who wanted to make a point by disrupting a pub ?
‘justify’ : By using this word , you are adding your own spin to a disconnected event. It is not about justification – it is about being a cause .
One of the causes of social disharmony is this cultural divide. People of traditional India value the Indian way of life and high culture which we are proud inheritors of. Alcoholism is understood differently by our ‘country’ brethern.
I say this becuase , most ‘educated’ indians look down upon their own ‘country’ folk. If it was not for the english strut , the so called educated among us ( including us on this blog ) we are far less cultured than an Indian villager who is rooted in social well being.
A pint of beer may not do much to those that are used to it – but for many Striaght thinking , simple Indians , ‘Smoking’ and ‘Drinking’ are bad habits and combined with a level of free mingling of sexes , it creates a Paranoia , that our our culture is getting lost roight beefore our eyes.
We neeed to address this seriously. Pub culture , eating junk food, dressing shabbily ( as percieved ), strutting borrowed English accent is not necessarily ‘progressive’. Infact it is ‘Regressive’.
It is ironic that when the whoel fo the West is discovering the wisdom of Ancient India , we who are its inheritors are choosing something far more inferior.
Shekar,
I feel hooliganism and morality/immorality are two different things. When, in the corporate world or the film industry, women are abused or in Brahmashastra’s words – steering the women in one way or the other into promoting lust and materialism in society, there is a question of personal choice. If a person chooses to get subjected to the advances of powerful people, they have to bore the consequences. They can choose to deny, retaliate and even take them to court and our judicial system is very supportive in such cases. It is completely the persons choice. But this in no way can promote hooliganism where someone is trying to make a choice for someone else.
Among the perpetrators of hooliganism, definitely cinema does play a part. However there can be no excuse for any kind of hooliganism and to actually in a sense ‘glorify’ it in cinema is irresponsible and insensitive. Anyone for any regulation here?
everybody have a drink and chill!! gawd, everyone is so uptight.
Rudra lets not do the same thing they did- ‘call the other inferior’.That would then show the real quality of our civilisation.
The tree with the most fruit lies low,isn’t it?
***
Secondly, regarding corruption here is a funny conversation I had with my immediate boss just when I joined with him. Later after about an year we fell out completely with each other and yesterday I’ve again been pushed(transfered) like a dog to another post in the tenth year of my service as a state gazzeted officer :
Sir, why do you think corruption is a must.Can’t it be stopped?
He goes”80% of our economy is in black money(his words) and if that is converted into white my salary would increase five fold wouldn’t it, so until that happens I have to bring up my children with full salary or not”
Then the brahmin that he is, he goes again”But I make sure my children eat only from my white salary,thats got to be pure you know as per the shastras(he teaches me)
the other money I just use for clothes etc. etc.”
Then when I tried asking him “how would it ever convert to white economy if we keep up the naugthy work and encourage the black economy” he goes “you know what, discussions don’t solve problems they only cause sore throats,lets just get to work”
For the next one year the conversations I had with him would be over in a line or two with his lips saying one thing and his eyes quite the other moving from one end of the sockets to the other and brightenning in the end to put extra emphasis.
This week also some top notch seems to have been rubbed the wrong way by what I had to write on the notings of one of the files.They wanted to have their cake under my signatures while I was educating them on the virtues of white economy.Somehow I didn’t oblige and they just showed me the door.Probably they’ll get a less discerning ‘bakra’ to enjoy their cake at his stake.And probably the one getting the lion’s share will retire on the 28th that is some 10 days from now-so that will be his farewell booty.
As for me, another dingy room for me to get cleared of the cobwebs and dust.By the time I’ve made the place sittable I will be getting pushed off for the next punishment posting.
This blog is just keeping me alive.
***
Although one thing comes to my mind that the govt. could use this slow growth period to convert the black economy into white empathically and openly with wide ranged voluntary disclosure schemes.Even if we can convert what adds 1 or 2 percentage points to the GDP we could be back on track before the rest of the world at least on paper.
Eureka…Eureka….but is anybody worth it reading.
This is true India Mr Shekhar,
Please watch my tribute to this great Nation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8FuUezou0
Its so Sad, we still free we are independent..
Shekhar I am enjoying debating on your web and for few days I have kept myself away from blogging. But now I am getting a little concerned at the introduction of unnecessary indecent language from one Dilip Muralidaran (eg I bet my ass, no man would want this.) – we have decent people debating – that includes nice women folks, incidentally he claims to be supporter of them. But he fails that the first lesson any ‘tradition’ teaches is the use of decent language…specially when women folks are present… My only request to you Shekhar is to keep all posting’s language pure and decent…unless you too approve such language…
Dilip Muralidharan comments:
“The ones that did not get good education and did not make the big money are pissed off looking at the ones that did.”
It sound you are telling your own story…sorry you could not get a good education…else your language would not have been so crude.
Amit Goel says:
And this is called living in a democracy
In the definition of democracy, every one has rights and duties. The people who encroach upon others rights are called hooligans and for bigger encroachments, they become gangsters, and senior most become terrorists.
My Comment:
One , I am not sure if what we have is a true democracy – century on from now we may become a democracy worth cherishing if we survive as a nation…
Two, it’s a myth Amit that ‘every one has rights and duties’ in so called ‘living democracy’. What right do 600 million fellow Indians have whose meagre earning per day is less than a dollar?….What ‘duties’ could they perform in favour of the nation (or the over hyped society who feel ‘all that is ‘Western’ is progressive and best and ‘pink chaddis’ are decent form of protest)? Does ‘right’ have a meaning for only those who HAVE all? And what duties and responsibility they have towards these deprived 600 million fellow men, if I may ask?
Horst adds:
‘a society that needs to walk before it starts to run headlong into a new era.’
My sentiments too…I have expressed similar points in other debates elsewhere in Shekhar’s web.
God Bless
RUDRA – you have slapped few people right on the face…see my posting elsewhere on the subject…good piece of ‘moral’ lecture…join my Moderate Brigade…good slap on Pinker Sena (the newly found ‘Pink Chaddi’ brigade)and a thapad on Ram sena…I totally agree ‘A villager’ – a Dehati, a gamad, or a Desi has very high human values and moral values than the ‘Pub-goers’, the Pink Chaddi Brigade’ and the ‘imported’ accented English babus and Madams…
God bless
Sex and violence in movies is the price we pay for freedom of expression. It would take going back to some medieval laws to stop it.
Hooliganism of one kind does not excuse hooliganism of another kind.
Justifying violence is common for the violent.
@ harijim : So you are fine with enforced and un-natural self-depreication as an indirect method of showing superiority ? – in this case ‘quality of civilization’ ?! Superiority and Inferiority are in the nature – and we should recognise(Without Arrogance ) how Indic civilization is a superior way.
@ Navin : It is good to see that there are people aroundd that are moderates who can see thigs clearly – for the secular , root less , and the pinkos , anything to the centre is ‘extremist’ and their vocabulary like many other ‘educated’ Indians is limited to ‘fascism’,’extremism’,’secular’ or ‘revolution’. They will shove people into one of the only four possible boxes. I wish their vocabulary extended to ‘truth’,’dharma’ and ‘culture’ – but thats asking for a lot !!
I agree, people need to lighten up some honestly!! Hindi cinema has its own ills just as all aspects of our soceity does – what with the casting couch, the family lineage paving way to not allow too many ‘outsiders’ into its hallowed corridors of fame glory and so many more that I could list but desist doing!
Is Brahmshastra saying bad films justify harassment of us women? I think NOT.
He has stretched A point to make a point of his own, he has been consistent in what he has been saying over every post of yours, you got to hand him that.
We largely also agree that we disagree with his point of view on this subject. So we shld let matters rest, and not rake them and beat them to pulp.
The FICCI panel hosted by Prahlad and the 4 women also pointed out to the much in existence deep rooted inequality between the hindi cinema male bastion and the non existaent bastion of females.
Its alright to disagree, its alright to hold onto our views, its better to be open to discussions and debates, and learn from each other, but it is seriously not ok in my book to harp upon something for too long till it gets infested and needs surgery to be removed!
I agree, people need to lighten up some honestly!! Hindi cinema has its own ills just as all aspects of our soceity does – what with the casting couch, the family lineage paving way to not allow too many ‘outsiders’ into its hallowed corridors of fame glory and so many more that I could list but desist doing!
Is Brahmshastra saying bad films justify harassment of us women? I think NOT.
He has stretched A point to make a point of his own, he has been consistent in what he has been saying over every post of yours, you got to hand him that.
We largely also agree that we disagree with his point of view on this subject. So we shld let matters rest, and not rake them and beat them to pulp.
The FICCI panel hosted by Prahlad and the 4 women also pointed out to the much in existence deep rooted inequality between the hindi cinema male bastion and the non existaent bastion of females.
Its alright to disagree, its alright to hold onto our views, its better to be open to discussions and debates, and learn from each other, but it is seriously not ok in my book to harp upon something for too long till it gets infested and needs surgery to be removed!
Rudra I seriously do not think we are superior while this also doesn’t mean we’re inferior.Yes our civilisation has a quality which is mysterious, esoteric, tolerant, relatively peaceful and most importantly forgiving.
But honestly I would be dead by now if ours was the only civilisation on Earth.
Everyday I come home from work and get the proverbial oxygen by watching some goras on some english channel on TV and thank God that those guys exist and live the way they live.
Our civilisation is suffocating although ‘too good and morally conscious’.As if one doesn’t need a mind or body to live and soul is the only thing worth having and taking care of.I truly don’t think so.I think its high time we easterners gave the body and mind their due and learnt/adopted something from the west.
We do need the west as much as the west needs us.Sorry if I couldn’t live upto your expectations but this is my soulspeak.
@ harijim : Civilizational values have to be objectively viewed – we are not talking of people yet . Superiority is not necessarily about accomplishment. I do feel , India is a stoic civilization and is far superior than any other civilization on the earth – and that is intellectually , spiritually , morally , religiously , linguistically ..in everyway.
What has happened in India in the last few centuries effects the way we view ourselves.
Superiority of Vedic Indian civilization or the Aryan civilization is a truth. And we have tom recognise it.
Rudra what has happened to/in India in the last few centuries should effect the way we view ourselves.And rather than deluding ourselves how good we were before we should question what was wrong with us that let the last few centuries happen.
Well said, harijim!
Body without soul is dead
soul without body never lived
Parvati without Shiva is dead
Shiva without Parvati never danced
None of them is inferior or superior
rather they both are always One
Hence to be equally respected and cared
Over to my dance I go….
Harb
@ harijim : You are re-phrasing what I said . The last few centuries has not just ‘effected’ – it has seeped into the blood and heart of common indians.
The trauma and terror of innumerable Haulocausts – far outweigh and outnumber the more recent ones in the 20th century . The pain and the suffering have forced us to look within – and even create a ‘cowardice’ aura inside Indians.
So much so , Indians ( including the educated English ones ) are uncomfortable with a ‘Shining’ , ‘Confident’ India – that the world is looking upto.
Thats a big transition – after centuiries of being looked down upon , to be looked up to.
The biggest effect of this civilizational trauma is a confusion of the intellect – and blabbering of speech – exactly what we see among ‘educated’ Indians. The Philosophoical roots are missing in many instances – having seen themselves from the eye of a Foriegner.
There is absolutely no Delusion about ‘ how good we were’ before . We absolutely were above and beyond every other civilization.
What was wrong with us in the last few centuries was a neglect of the real ‘Dharma’ and naivette of realpolitik – also a total lack of understanding of the kind of threats posed to India by external , exclusivistic philosophies.
Let us be clear at least now !!
Post No: 19 by harijim shows the sad state of his mind…word fails me to respond as I will need to stoop even lower…should I respond?…well! not now…
God Bless
Semantics..maybe ‘superiority’ is a wrong choice when it comes to comparing people..probably a better choice of words is ‘more spiritually evolved’. There is a difference between kids in the 5th grade and those in the 10th. For one and all, the evolution will continue until the individual soul is merged into the whole. There is perfect order behind the chaos. When it comes to wisdom about the manifested and unmanifested, nothing comes close to the Vedic gems, and the high vibrational energy of the Indian land is undoubtedly superior, the true superpower of the world.