Davos World Economic Forum – the fixers ?

I cant help laughing. I see TV coverage of all the world’s bussiness, economic and political leaders gathering together to network and party over a weekend. And the world press says “they are discussing how to save the world from the current financial mess”
Hang on, are these not just the people that caused the mess in the first place ? Striving as they were towards more and more wealth in the name of entrepreneurship and progress ? How are they going save the world ? Assuming as they do, that the greater their own or their company’s market value, the better off the world was.
What is needed is a complete rethinking of the way wealth is distributed in this world. The people in Davos are too self centered to think that way. Maybe they should all buy little cottages in Davos and stay there for a year or so, while the world re-aligns itself economically.

71 Responses to “Davos World Economic Forum – the fixers ?”

  1. hari says:

    And even more hilarious it becomes when the major correspondents of BBC and CNN say that its what those biggies do behind closed doors what matters.And these poor journalists are just shooed away from the real stuff.
    While at the end a presentable speech is presented and distributed.

  2. hari says:

    One thing though, I would like to ask the astrophysicist Shekhar, aren’t these fixers part of the same Space,Universe,God,destiny of the world,etc etc? Even the parasites must have some value in the big scheme of things.
    These people have risen to such heights it all couldn’t be without the Universe watching over them or even encouraging them at times to be what they are.

  3. chalo gaon ki aur…

  4. koizen says:

    They are saving their own faces and giving speeches to protect themselves

  5. shekhar says:

    Dear Hari, ‘great heights’ is a value judgement imposed by the way we perceive the universe, not a universal design, shekhar

  6. Yuva says:

    Actually this year no big usual names are present in davos due to corporate ‘cost-cutting’.. much of presence is from developing countries (Mexico,..). but yes i agree- its big waste of time & money. i dont think any useful (measurable benefits) coming out from there.

  7. Navin says:

    I see no hope for this world until and unless there is a proper re-distribution of wealth between the haves and the have-nots. We are headed towards anarchy, increased terrorism, wars & civil wars! The greed of a few powerful people (like the ones congregating at Davos) has directly led to the current situation. But what those greedy people could not foresee is that they won’t be safe for long. It’s just a matter of time before the have nots will be at their doors and knock their citadels down.
    Cheers!

  8. austere says:

    Oh let them pontificate and party.
    The real world is demanding replies in real time,instant action and no delays.
    What happens now that the TARP money is almost over?

  9. Harb says:

    There is much to laugh about shekhar!
    To think that the good intentions of the new breed will take the world to heavens!
    Sometime back somebody asked on a blog if Obama will save the world. My answer was (you can replace Obama with world’s economic, business and political leaders you mentioned above):
    *****
    Far beyond the Obama art
    is the art of
    the initial action and reaction
    of the big bang and through that
    of the successive evolutionary play
    of the universe and of all its
    heirarchical systems within
    in terms of FOUR BASIC FORCES OR INTERACTIONS
    Obama, nay
    even the species Man as a whole
    is merely on the tip of this iceberg
    of the universal evolutionary scheme of things
    tip does not lead the iceberg where it will
    though it may seem to be so
    it is the iceberg stupid!
    To understand the details
    refer book Self-Designed Universe
    which the same iceberg thought it fit
    to be writ through me,
    as dedicatedly as now you read
    Anurag Sagar* and The Phenomenon of Man**
    Because some day soon
    the first will look like
    a book for the cultural children
    as compared to this
    while the second as woefully lacking in detail
    though correct in its general theme
    as mere saying ‘water flows from high to low’
    lacks if not mentioned gravity
    Indeed, it is all play in cycles
    from being to becoming to back and so on
    with the being part housed in Eternity
    beyond it as well while the becoming part
    giving birth to time and all its
    dichotmous and vile play
    Indeed, the overall House
    can also be called God
    or Consciosuness-as-such
    or this and that and so on
    even Nature, even Universe if we will
    make a difference by calling
    the universe which evolves with small ‘u’
    but beyond this there is really no need to use any religious words or symbols
    so much for Anurag Sagar
    or of its being for cultural children
    So far The Phenomenon of Man is concerned
    now it should be clear from where the evolutionary push comes from
    in terms of science, or at least
    in terms of its philosophy
    or what gives the consequent universe
    the myriad forms it bears
    and what takes it to point Omega and why
    for there is no mystery, it is simple physics
    except perhaps for the socalled grandunification
    which can only be self-experienced
    for there subject and object
    cannot remain separate
    – one to know and the other to be known
    Impromptu, Harb
    *After knowing about my book the above person asked me to read Kabir’s Anurag Sagar. It is also about cosmology but to me much couched in absolete religious terms and situations though it must be because science was not that developed in those days. I wondered in anger why should he not progress from Anurag Sagar to my book himself rather than ask me to read that 600 years old book. I wrote about that book as for cultural children because now when science is soo advanced only culturally backward people will like to read cosmology couched in that religious jargon and symbology.
    **The Phenomenon of Man, written by a 19th century catholic priest Teilhard De Chardin is a very good, original book on evolution/cosmolgy though it was not appreciated in its time and aroused people’s attention only in the last couple of decades. Here again, though its general theme is correct and almost matches mine it has not the details given by me because again science was not developed to this extent then. I felt the same way about it as about Anurag Sagar when some other body asked me to read it rather than talk about mine.
    Of course I know that original works are not understood and appreciated immediately but then I also know that sometimes their creators do get frustrated. So please excuse.
    Since the post has already become quite long anyway, I may also add here for those who will think that perhaps I am advertising for my book that I do not really bother for what usual books/films etc bring for people and for which they really advertise and want them to sell, but I certainly bother for and want known the idea it contains. I see science daily inching towards its evolutionary theme more about which I will write later.
    Note: Shekhar, pl you can reject my post without second thought if you should feel that through it I am making sort of any self-advertisement. There will be no question of my minding it.

  10. raj says:

    The world was never a safe place to live. I wonder why people constantly complain about world being so bad? World has always been bad and Humans are of selfish
    There were times when sati was practiced, there were times when female child was burried alive, there were times when freedom of expression did not exist. Person who claimed that the earth is round was put behind bars..Now we have crossed that stage and moved ahead to another set of problems i.e extreme poverty,terrorism,corruption etc
    I have been watching concerts by rock stars,pop stars since 80’s, to make this world a good place to love but now I have realized, as long as humans survive; this world will be full of dirt and blood shed..
    The fact is we humans are selfish and worst than animals..
    The biggest tragedy of humanity : Animal rights activists are more powerful the human rights activists..U kill a human u can get away, kill a chicken , PETA will make ur life misreble
    We are so obsessed with pleasing God that we forget to take care of people. Again,we just can’t blame the rich and comman man is equally responsible..
    One more point to be noted: EACH day 15000 people die due to poverty,hunger and when 300-400 rich people die due to terrorism,we create a huge fuss..

  11. Mee says:

    Do you think the West understands the meaning of “entrepreneurship and progress”- maybe you need to get your friend Deepak Chopra and yourself together and do some refresher courses for those dudes who are so called – networking on company expenses all paid for holidays in Davos yr on yr! They need to discover the meaning of entrepreneurship and progress in its truest real sense if they want to belong to their rightful place in society!
    Hari- ever hear of PR= Public Relations? That is what makes the machinery run and shine, not entrepreneurship nor speeches nor those well researched snotty journos either!

  12. I guess you are being a bit unfair towards the business community. Agreed that the financial crisis has its roots in the corporate sector but then that is the very basis of the way the world functions. Every domain is bound to have its good and bad moments. We can’t ignore a particular community just because its having its facing tough times. Moreover a few rotten apples would not destroy the entire garden.Lets back the biz community in times of trouble instead of being too critical of them.

  13. Ronin says:

    It was an interesting coincidence that three people in different parts of the world were thinking abt the need for a new economic system yesterday.
    Here is an interesting debate on the topic we had yesterday..We even have couple of volunteers volunteering to join the fixer band..
    http://kalugu.com/2009/01/27/do-you-know-the-answer/
    (The link is a back and forth comments discussion and unformatted to copy/paste here..Sorry.. this is not an attempt to get more traffic. Please ignore if against your policies)

  14. chstrig says:

    I agree with Hari, chalo gaon ki aur. I am yet to see a single CEO become homeless but have already heard of a man who killed himself, his wife and his five kids because he got laid off. Capitalism must protect the Capitalists at ALL cost. Chalo gaon ki aur. Given science a try, given religion a try, given capitalism a try, it is now time to give simplicity a chance to bring us peace.

  15. hari/jimmy says:

    Since its so silent here I would like mention a thing or two myself here.
    My parents nicknamed me Jimmy as I was born the year (1976) when Jimmy Carter visited India.
    Then after 2002 I stuck with my original name Harpreet or its short hari for I didn’t much like being named after an American President.
    Then came 20th January 2009.And the energies and vibrations around the globe are different.Iran is talking.Russia has stopped its security plan in East Europe as she declared she did not feel threatened by the current US administeration.
    We have got a commoner who listens as the most powerful man on Earth.But as Peter Beinart(Time) writes popularity does not necessarily convert into power, Barack’s success is everybodies responsibility.
    Jimmy
    ***
    Oppurtunity:
    Earlier It was thought that the world will unite in true spirit only in case of an alien attack(as in Independence day or War of the Worlds or Signs).But here is an oppurtunity.A true World crisis:
    a)Global Economy
    b)Climate change/Global warming
    c)Nuclear disarmament
    Do we still need an alien attack?

  16. hari/jimmy says:

    Another faux pas as elsewhere earlier.
    I never wrote “great heights”.What I wrote was just “such heights” and why are we even discussing them or wanting to look at the outcome of Davos if we wouldn’t give them this much credit.
    They’ve reached there with their butts on the table in public.Like Maddof each will be lynched if this crisis turns into anarchy as job losses ensue.
    Its easy to boo or clap from the pavillion.They who are in the thick of things will sometimes make mistakes.Global economy is better than global chaos,Don’t you think?
    And these guys created the infrastructure for that.
    (Variety of thought eh!)

  17. Shekhar,
    Microfinancing has been the most successful and sustainable wealth making model to emerge in the last few decades. It has been the driven by the people who face the problem on a day to day basis. ‘Social Capitalism’ as some call it is based on self governance to an extent. Work that the ‘Grameen Bank’, Grameen Foundation and other alike do is simply staring us in the face. There is something inherently simple, transparent about this growth model that we need to tap into at a larger scale.
    Cheers
    Deepak

  18. hari/jimmy says:

    Hey Harb,
    Your book’s got great stuff there.May be the rarer the jewellery fewer the people get the opportunity to wear it.
    The other day I was questioning myself as to how productive my life was. Suddenly a realisation dawned on me that savi and sagun are my greatest products and each day the interaction we have is great productive work in itself for I am nurturing the newness of the Universe.
    However to those concerned I would like to add here that Harb has a pure village upbringing and studied till matric in a village Govt. school.Then was good enough to get into pre-engineering and then Engineering.
    Later served the Govt. for sometime and then “moved to the mountains of the mind” to dig the Truth firsthand independant of any religion.
    He reseliently espoused the fact that ultimate Truth could not be evasive to Science.And I believe the Universe answered his quest with a rare intuition into the larger and generally unapparent scheme of things.After more than two decades of equipping himself with English and becoming aware of where the world stands vis a vis philosophy,religion,mysticism,anthropology and cutting edge science he labyrinthed into existence this book called “Self Designed Universe”.
    However hard he might have tried the cumbersome topic(not just expressing the Truth but rationally explaining It)and his handicap of not being an ‘English author’ in the literary sense of the phrase seems to have added to todays requirement of unabashed self-promotion and marketing to sell a thing well in this fast moving world with decreasing attention spans.
    I don’t think Harb will endorse my words ‘hard’ and ‘labyrinthed’ as he likes to call himself just going with the Taoish flow.But I have had the priviledge of being with him for these decades and would know.
    I personally purchased this book and keep it with Bhagwat Geeta,Sukhmani Sahab and Encyclopedia of World Religions.
    I have gained from the book a certain treasure which I believe will be apparent to the world in times to come.It lets one view the spiritual aspect of the Universe through a scientific window.For ultimately like Consciousness and Matter they are One.

  19. ruchi says:

    In USA big corporates are paying retention bonus to its top management? i am asking why why? they want to retain these people who took them on the path od bankrupcy. citi bank is buying jet and look at how many people are loosing jobs.
    when its matter of bailing out banks and auto industries republicians gave away money like left over food but now to give tax cut to common people they are fighting tooth and nail.
    shame on them and same on people who spend millions of dollars trying to understand why they failed??? it is so obvious they know why?

  20. uttecycle says:

    jayeetam.blogspot.com – cool sitename man)))

  21. Harb says:

    hari, I feel I made the mistake of writing soo expansively about my book and you further made this mistake conspicuous by your equally expansive comment. Anyway, perhaps now we should stop on it.
    By the way, I fully agree with the use of the word ‘hard’ and really nothing has been harder for me than trying to clothe my insight with words and making a full book out of it, which is in fact why I often said to myself while writing it that never in my life I will write an other book.
    Actually same goes for the word “labyrinthed”. I was not an academician and did not know how to plan/write a book but on the other hand the insight would not let me rest. In fact before I had my insight it was as of I had gone to some deep, deep world and would never return to normal world, even to normality as some Doctor had said that I had some “psychosomatic illnesses.” But once I had the insight I felt as if I began to journey upwards catching hold of it as a rope and when I actually began clothing the insight with words I was sort of running towards normalcy.
    Flowing with the flow thing came much later, in fact when I had done away with everything connected with the book and no longer thought about it.
    Anyway, thank you for the comments, dont mind my asking to stop as I feel we are on a public platform and should limit the personal things to a minimum. However, you know a few lines like the above are not a taboo especially those which reveal some situations which many could have gone through and can benefit from a discussion about them.
    Harb

  22. Harb says:

    hari, in a lighter vein, yours indeed is a productive life with your two children, savi and sagun, so do you think that Shekhar is not doing enough (production) because he has only one child to bring up lol?
    Re #2, #5, I am sure all you wanted to say regarding the people gathered at Davos was that whatever they have done or are doing irrespective of whether they have passed or failed is too in universe’s evolutionary scheme of things (design)and so has served/serving some purpose.
    Harb

  23. kedar says:

    Hi dudeeeeeeeee……
    how are you?
    Yes i completed my short film!!!!!!!
    what took me so long? well…budget!…and many other reasons…
    what was i doing all this time? sitting and waiting? no way…i wrote 3 scripts, sold 2 of them…well…Marathi films!
    third one i would direct myself some day…
    currently working on a new story which will be my first full length feature film!…
    its good to talk to you after such a long time…but i too got busy with ‘DONE’ thing! ๐Ÿ™‚

  24. Harb says:

    A little clarification re #9 and relevant to the theme of the present thread:
    From the above post of mine some people may take the wrong notion that perhaps I mean that since the evolutionary scheme of things is directed by some other mechanism from below we should do nothing. This is not my meaning.
    All I mean is that no doubt we should do our utmost to set any things straight to our capacity and wisdom but the results may not always be to our liking. Because the results will be according to the fundamental mechanism (in terms of four basic interactions)which directs the whole scheme ever since big bang.
    It is in fact the same thing as contained in Bhagvad Gita in religious garb: where Krishana says to Arjuna that he must do his duty as per the timespace he is in but should not expect that the result will always be the way he will like, because the result will be decided by Me (which is really the impersonal (not human-hearted, as Lao Tze said; nirbhao, nirver as Nanak said) fundamental universal evolutionary scheme of things in the garb of Krishana).
    In fact the universal scheme of things in terms of four basic interactions gives us the ground – fresh ground from time to time – on which then we act as per Darwinian explanations, by adapting to some of this fresh/changed ground/realities while changing the others which we can chnage and indeed for survival etc.
    And the above arrangement will go ok for some time till time for the coming of new, fresh ground/paradigm-shift/phase-change has again come. Then there will be some sort of small or big catastrophe, our arrangements will go haywire, our stability/status-quo will get punctured, there will develop alround chaos but out of it a new order, a new ground would already have begun to emerge at a very subtle/deep/quantum level really in sort of what science calls quantum jump.
    So really at the end of the day none has done any right or wrong, all acted as vehicles to push the scheme of things further: some by working to create new order and looking as if doing right/great in the process, others now working on destorying the old one and in the process looking as if doing wrong. In due time right will become wrong because they will now like to continue to cling to the old one while the wrong will become right because they will like to destroy it so that the new one is able to emerge from underneath/within it.
    Needless to say the total evolutionary scheme really comprises the combination of both the fundamental scheme in terms of four basic interactions and what we and even all the previous species and even simple matter before us has been doing on it.
    So now, we need to destroy the intellect/reason//ego based economy and replace it with intuition/compassion/wisdom based one. So cheers to the new warriors in this but equally cheers to the old warriors which brought the things here all with good intentions and are sitting at Davos now!
    Harb

  25. Harb says:

    One thing leading to an other – perhaps it too is sort of flowing with the flow lol – and now I feel like writing what a wisdom-based economy would be like (oh, no! again based on my book!).
    Wisdom-based economy in simple is the economy of an old man, an old culture, or of a culture which is getting old. I need not repeat that it is as per four basic interactions and particularly as per the last one of them in the present case, that which applies to our old age or to our last phase in our individual life.
    Here will be its salient features:
    1. Trying to save the already earned than trying to earn more recklessly.
    2. Putting more emphasis on cash-earning than on asset-earning.
    3. Curtailing wants.
    4. Spending within one’s means
    5. Trying to be self-reliant as far as possible
    6. Curtailing use of natural resources.
    7. Trying to save oneself than save the world (it will be like Gandhi’s “be the change you want to bring in the world.”
    8. A move from globalisation to localisation, or globalisation in terms of knowledge/wisdom, localisation in terms of physical actions/assets, something like “think globally act locally.”
    These changes will come anyway though it may take far more time than we usually expect for these are really the changes to take place on Ages level.
    Harb

  26. raj says:

    Dear Respected Shekhar Kapur,
    I really feel, your blog needs to have 2 way communication. It would be great if you could reply to your fans as well.
    I would love to see a documentary made by you,as this is one area which is lacked by India..Fiction is always easier to make but non-fiction stuff is really tough as it requires lot of research work..
    I was reading a book called “British-Indian campaigns in Britain for Indian reforms,justice and freedom 1831 – 1947” and I was surpised to read articles written in those days..But unfortunately the younger generation is not aware of the past..
    Regards..

  27. Plepolotupt says:

    http://www.shekharkapur.com – great domain name for blog like this)))

  28. swaami says:

    Harb# 25: You truly sound like Lao Tzu here or i shall say truly sound like a true sound.
    ‘Krishana says to Arjuna that he must do his duty as per the timespace he is in but should not expect that the result will always be the way he will like, because the result will be decided by Me…..’
    One more point i could see in it apart from what you said, so would like to mention which is in-a-way is one of the channels to walk on/towards the above path of wisdom(#25) on his own:-
    It tells the traveller not to focus on the results while one is into/performing the act i.e. to live it out totally that you become one with it like a child becomes while he plays/works. Doing this one becomes spontaneously one with the flow of the existence at that point. It is a meditative state/yoga/unison in itself.
    Now coming to results they are governed through a much wider and complex universal design or the inner laws of nature – you already explained it appropriately in your own unique way.

  29. swaami says:

    Dear Harb,
    WhattZ your parameter here of generalisation whne you say ‘good intentions’??
    what are bad intentions??
    and do people rise to such heights(become public figure(s) who influences and effects a large number of people economically, spiritually, mentally, religiously, emotionally, politically or otherwise in any field) only with good intentions so to say??
    and coming to it more specifically – do intentions really have a role when results are actually decided elsewhere or some other deeper fundamental mechanism. i am sure there is much more it than we can perceive at any stage.

  30. Harb says:

    Dear swaami, thank you for #28.
    Re: #29, for me there are no intentions we are just cogs in the great universal evolutionary scheme of thing as explained by me in my book.
    Similarly, for me there are no high heights and low heights, all are serving the above-mentioned scheme of things at their own timespaces in their own unique/required way. For me Hitler and Mother Teressa are the same as are in fact all other entities in the universe, that is not only socalled living organisms but to which we call non-living as well.
    Some time later I may explain how even a socalled lifeless piece of mud does the same things in its own way we human beings do with our so much overvalued intellect to save itself, to adjust to environment, to take part in evolution and so on.
    I used the word sort of tongue in cheek refering to the saying that “the way to hell is paved with good intentions.”
    Regards, Harb

  31. shekhar12 says:

    welcome back, kedar
    hope u had a great time making the film
    missed you on the blog
    shekhar

  32. kedar says:

    hi dude…
    the experience was great…i would like to send you the dvd ( i have still not found a right cover design for it…may be a week more)…how can i snail mail it to you? Please let me know how to get your office address?
    kedar

  33. hari/jimmy says:

    @#30 Harb, those are the kind of things where I disagree with you.
    No matter what I would never agree how you equate Mother Terressa and Hitler.
    You know what socratic truths lead to.The oneness of the Universe and its scheme of things don’t give a license to do as one pleases.A whole spectrum of religions have been founded to explain the very point that one will bear the fruits of ones actions.
    Be it Gita or The Ten Commandments none of them says there’s no freewill.And what one sows with this freewill is what one reaps.
    I don’t subscribe to “Good intentions paving way to hell either” similarly as I don’t subscribe to “Survival of the fittest”or “We’ll all be dead in the long term” and thus may do whatever we like in the short term.
    This is exactly the problem why Socrates was put to death and its not as if people generally do not live after telling the truth.The truth has to be conducive to well being of the Society of the present times as well as eternity.Bargaining one for the other could be catastrophic.
    And such shocking gimmicks may attract attention to whatever we may subconsciously want but will cause bigger troubles generally.
    ***
    This way you are giving a Universal license to every criminal and rapist in the world and puting law and order in jeopardy.The self-proclaimed custodians of the Universe should be very careful about what they say or write.Or else people will eventually stop listning and the proverbial baby will be thrown out from the bathtub with the water.
    Sorry for being a bit too direct but I couldn’t help it.We’ve had our differences before on such issues.

  34. hari/jimmy says:

    And Hey Swaami,
    You don’t seem to know what basic good or bad intentions are?And that everything is a value judgement.
    Well here is an explanation:
    If I start eyeing your wife now that will be a bad intention unless you approve of it.
    And if I respect her to be anothers wife and control the animal in me now that would be a good intention.
    I hope I’ve added to your knowledge.
    ***
    And yes most of the people who reach influential heights generally start with good intentions which may later get muddied in the realpolitik of the world.But still their stay at those heights is directly proportional to their ability to hold on to their original well-meaning character.
    We have an example right here in the creater of this blog.

  35. darlings we cannot ignore davos can we… especially when Bahu-ke-Bapu gets himself some crystal award there. In that case Davos is quite ok? Nahi?
    What to do yaar? we are like this only!

  36. swaami says:

    Dear Harb #30, Its on some pyschic communication level that caught you to mention about the parallelism that operates at every level in the whole brahmand that I have been engulfed upon in recent times.
    As you mentioned that you will come to that some time later I gladly await the relevant insight in your words on how even mud does the same things in its own way we human beings do with our so much overvalued intellect.
    After that we shall come to intentions, its role if any and in what way are Hitler and Mother Terassa are the same the way you perceive.

  37. swaami says:

    Dear Hari/Jimmy, I couldn’t actually understand your explanation nor could i understand what prompted the need for such. Though I could very well sense the good intentions behind them. So thank you!
    “A monkey takes up the fish from water and takes up the tree. O gosh, I saved you from drowning.” There is much more to it in this game of intention, even more than value judgement. Or perhaps there is just nothing as Harb hints out.
    We surely will get to the roots of intentions now when it has caught up the attention of fellow beings out here.

  38. Harb says:

    Dear swaami, in continuation of #28/29, well said about the meditative state/yoga/unison/living like a child…
    It is living in sahaj state, living as one with one’s inner nature and outer Nature, the hallmark of a real sage…
    It is a state when one has joined (Yoga)the two apparently divided sides of the play within and as a consequence without oneself and has reached the third state of undifferentiating consciousness.
    Then one does not make a choice between what usual person sees as two apparently opposed sides in life.* Because then one sees that really they are one and the same. Their apparent duality is only a deception. Their face value says one thing, at their back is something else. Then one sees that existence and nonexistence, birth and death, happiness and misery, good and bad, moral and immoral, monk and thief, religion and irreligion, are all the expansion of only one thing, always alternating between themselves. Understanding this he does not take sides and keeps his calm.
    Otheriwse, entrapped in dividing mind man lives in a confused state in the deceptive play of the two apparently divided sides. Going beyond them is his goal. Then having banished the bad intentions/evil etc from his own mind he does not find them outside otherwise he encounters them at every step of his life because actually he perceives only what he himself is or at what level of entrapment he himself is. But time heals all. When the time is yet not ripe then like the youth who entrapped in emotions does not listen to reason, the man who is entrapped in his dividing mind does not listen to wisdom. But just as eventually youth comes to listen to reason after much suffering similarly the above man also comes to listen to wisdom.
    *Prior to this state he has no free will, or his will/actions/choices are dictated by his inner fight between the two apparently opposing sides or by his love for one side and hate for the other. But when he has transcended the division and has reached the third state, the state described in religious jargon as “seeing with third eye of Shiva” he HAS free will but is left with no weakness to exercise it, he does not want anything for himself and is content with whatever comes his way. He knows so supposed good times will follow bad times without effort and he knows so-supposed bad times will follow good times despite all efforts.
    Harb

  39. Harb says:

    Dear swaami, sorry the message at #38 went at a tangent and did not involve my promised explanation of how even a piece of mud takes part in evolution like us human beings.
    Now as that explanation will be in terms of four basic forces it will be better if you will acquaint yourself with them first from my post 25, 35 and 36 at http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/01/maulana_rumi_ti.html
    as also the general scope of my book at
    http://self-designed-universe.blogspot.com/
    Sorry, you know what is already written is very energy-consuming to repeat again and again. After your comments on the above I will write the promised explanation which will be one of its kind and none would have read about it before in the world.
    Harb

  40. God says:

    Dear Swaami ,
    As Harb has put it after inertia come emotions, after emotions comes mind and after mind wisdom.But I speak from what was before Inertia and what comes after wisdom.
    The provocation is simple. I created the world with inerts, emotional people, mindful people and wise ones.The inerts just live.The emotional people get pushed or pulled by emotions while living.The mindful ones think and decide, whether for themselves at the stake of the society which is bad, or for the society at their own stake which is good but foolish, or for both themselves as well as the society which is good. And the wise ones like Harb go beyond thinking and thus don’t differentiate between themselves and others or society or good or bad.But this wisdom I gave to the wise ones to lead there own lives and not to explain with their minds to the mindful ones who would clearly take from his view that running concentration camps and running nursing homes for the desolate are the same .They may be same to a wise man but not to Me.
    Did I not say to Arjuna that What I told him should never be told to a man who is not pious,nor to the one who does not believe in Me, nor to the one who finds fault with Me.
    But Veda Vyasa commited the mistake of putting it in written word for any to see.And now for his mistake I had to take birth again to put things right because the mindful ones getting their wisdom from the foolish wise ones have brought the world to the brink of extinction.
    They said “too many religions…they are confusing us”.I inspired them to make laws, both local and international.They did. But the ones that did, broke them.
    Why, because they had saints like Harb who’d wink at them and say “Don’t worry! Carry on,I know God He won’t mind”.

  41. Harb says:

    Dear hari,
    First I would try to make you understand why people here do not seem to read your words correctly. In this regard now I can simply parry your querry regarding equality of Hitler and Mother Teressa by saying that I did not say they are equal for you or for anybody else much less the universe but simply “for me”. But I will not because I know it will be just playing upon words like your saying that you did not say “great heights” only “such heights”, you did not say “showcase to the west” only “showcase” or “showcase to the world”, you did not say “Shekhar has not done enough” only that “Shekhar has not done as much as he can” and so on.
    Wise say every truth is a truth within a situation, and so is the truth of any words written within the situation of this blog. If I write here that Omar and Sukhbir have become chief ministers and then discuss further that they have reached “such heights” because of their parents then it is natural for others to understand from this that by “such heights” I mean their achieivng the “great heights” of becoming the chief ministers.
    Same goes for your not writing “showcase to the west” only “show case” etc. Here, Shekhar ended his thread with the words “When will we stop being aspirational TOWARDS THE WEST?” And your message began with “WHEN WE START… (producing indigenous global quality products in big numbers to let the world know the significance of our culture in the world cultures).” No wonder then the reader will take “to let the world know” for “to let the west know” and from “producing indegenous global quality products to let the world know…” as that you are writing about “showcasing to the west our indegenous quality products etc.”
    Same goes for Shekhar doing not enough against your saying not as much as he can and so on on which though I need not elaborate.
    Now below I give a copy of story I wrote somewhere else to make you understand that once one has experienced One or God one cannot help “seeing” things from His perspective as well and so knowing that all are equal before that vision and none is at fault (It is like having experienced Krishana’s viraat swarupa you feel all are you and taking part in the perfect scheme of things of the perfect One). Even otherwise I am not giving licence to anybody, nor people become criminals and rapists by reading blogs but perhaps by the same way the protagonist of the story became thief etc.
    So here goes the story and some of what went before it in a previous post for the sake of continuity:
    ******
    ….I may also add here that we all serve the greater cause of the evolution of the universe in whatever we do – even while fighting with each other – just in the same way the cells of our bodies are serving ours in whatever they do.
    Seen in this context, I may also add though it will not be very palatable to soft stomachs here that in the divine or universal scheme of things a Hitler’s works are as important as a Mother Teressa’s. Nobody can go beyond the scheme of things of the universe and all are only serving this scheme of things of evolution. The apparent competition between all opposing realities/things serves the same purpose as the apparent competition of our own two feet to go ahead of each other and in the process making us move ahead. It is the same with overall scheme of evolution of the universe. Two apparently opposing or fighting forces actually help universe’s evolution to move ahead.
    Some people will find it unacceptable especially given the fact that Hitler killed so many people while Mother loved so many. But if we are to go after Hitler because of this we must first go after the so-called ‘loving’ God who kills so many what with the now Tsunami here now an earthquake there…
    Secondly, I may also make it clear that we never really know who has really killed more people. Some kill overtly some covertly. Some kill actively while some kill passively. The fact of the matter is that all are serving the greater scheme of things by whatever they do and moreover, nobody does anything on his/her own, it is the cause and effect working ever since the beginning of the present cycle of the universe since big bang. And it is built outside of us in the so-called objective world as much as inside us through our genetic makeups and even beyond them through and in our minds.
    *****
    I am afraid that many people will misunderstand me when I say that Hitler is as much serving the scheme of things of the universe as Mother Teressa. They will think that perhaps by saying so I am against giving punishment to so-supposed wrong doers. But it is not the case. Doing what you do is as much a part of the scheme of things as receiving or giving punishment. I may clarify my point further by a story whose author I have forgotten.
    A man died and was produced before Dharamraj, the giver of punishment to wrong doers on earth in the kingdom of God up there. Whenever Dharamraj would enlist a wrong deed done by the man the latter would invoke God in his defence saying “God knows I did this because of this, God knows I did that because of that, God knows I killed that old lady because she threatened to throw me out of her house even though I had high fever if I would not give her the rent of the last three months, God knows I stole that cycle because I had got my leg hurt badly and I could not go to my work on foot and if I did not go I and my children would not be able to eat at night… and so on.
    In desperation, Dharamraj requested God to come over and listen to this man’s explanations and decide upon the punishment Himself as this man invoked Him as a witness in whatever he did. On hearing this God laughed heartily. Then He said: “Listen Dharmaraj! I know everything. Knowing everything I know none is at fault. Everybody did what he did because of some overwhelming circumstances forcing him to do so. Only someone who knows things only partially can find anybody guilty. Which is, in fact, why I have chosen you to do the job of giving punishments. Carry on with your job.
    Though this is not in the story, I may add that giving punishment even in this way serves a purpose. With the fear of punishment we try to resist more and more the overwhelming circumstances and thus in a way outgrow such circumstances which is our evolutionary goal. Sages have outgrown all such circumstances in the course of their long evolution which would as yet be quite overwhelming for us ordinary mortals. And only those who have outgrown all forcing circumstances really has free will and none else I may add.
    So please hari suffice with this story and if you can still not find any truth in it then forgive.
    Harb
    I amy also add that often the persons who are understood to be bad come out to be good on a bit deeper search and vice versa which is in fact why even more socalled good people suffer than bad. A supposedly bad person thinks himself to be bad and so is humble from deep down while a person who thinks himself good or appears good on the outside is oftentimes pampering his ego secretly in the process and so God or whosoever is the dispenser of punishments has to often give him even greater punishment to break the shackle of ego from around him.

  42. God says:

    And dogooders shouldn’t be disheartened, bad times are not inevitable, times will remain good and even become better if you keep your Faith in Me and keep up the good work.
    Harb’s thoughts are a product of his own deeds and resultant psychology.Take the good part which your cautious reason agrees with and use it and leave the rest of his ramblings to himself and Me.
    Well, much could even be learnt from the knowledgeable Ravana who to Harb would be the same as Ram given his philosophy.

  43. hari/jimmy says:

    @41 well put Harb.
    I am sure dharamraj would have given the severest punishments to both the wrong doer and the author of that story you mentioned.

  44. God says:

    That author of the story that Harb mentions but does not remember died and was brought in front of Me up here by Dharamraj.
    Dharamraj asked for My recommendations for the author as he had been using My name as his sweet will desired to tell stories about Me.
    I recommended him to be thrown into the fowlest of Hells as he had done the greatest wrong.
    The author begged “But why? its You who inspired me to write those stories”. I asked him to ponder our that question in the fires of Hell and answer it for himself.
    And by the way I told the weeping author, had the man prayed to Me honestly instead of killing the old Lady, for a solution which would be beneficial for both him and the Lady I would have shown him my sublime ways and answered his prayers.
    And Harb people who ask for true forgiveness from my bhaktas I myself forgive them.

  45. swaami says:

    Dear God, As I said earlier your intentions are good and you as a visitant have your own illusions like everyone else even though elementally we are God/One.
    Besides, I do not truly endorse using our universal identities to over emphasize our point or agreements or disagreements though you may please still do as you please. Even Hitlers and Osamas had/have to use it in someway so why not the Dogooders.
    “Well, much could even be learnt from the knowledgeable Ravana who to Harb would be the same as Ram given his philosophy.” This is almost what is expressed through the canon of Adhyatma Ramayana, where it is explained that how everything(including incidents and characters what Valmiki termed as evil) had equipoise roles in the larger drama of destiny.
    Though this version of Ramayana was/is meant only for spiritual seekers and did not get much reach, Valmiki Ramayana hence reached the masses and worked well in the areas which seem to be your concern as well. So it is not too wrong to say once one has experienced One or God one cannot help “seeing” things from His perspective as well and so knowing that all are equal before that vision and none is at fault and still doing what one is attuned/destined to (attuned and destined as synonyms, aren’t they?) where he will seem to be standing on one side and not the other so to say.
    I assure you not many are reading what we are taking about here and very few will reach till here. There is nothing to relate and worry on how it is going to effect the existence in general in good or bad way based on what we communicate/participate out here.

  46. hari/jimmy says:

    Dear Swaami and Harb,
    I wouldn’t want to loose two friends to win an argument so let me end it from my side by saying you guys think and write from the point of view of the Universe but we’ve got a world to live in.
    And as this world is run and controlled mostly by people of the ‘strong force’ they’ll use everything you write in the name of God or Universe to tackle the strong force they are engulfed in.So it would be prudent to be cautious and not act as Shukracharya(the sage of demons) who had the brahmgyan but sided with warmongers and recalcitrants.
    Besides I was happy to visit Harb’s blog site but found some irrelevant comments there.Harb it would be nice if incomings comments on that site are filtered before publishing so that they are not spam comments.
    And Swaamiji although I have a fair idea now of who you bodily are but me-asks if we are elementally God/Universe what place for own illusions.
    Even in Valmiki Ramayan Ravana was not only forgiven after being fatally wounded but promised Swargamoksha as he had just carried out his destiny as the very God’s will that the good intentioned Ram was.
    Well thank God now we’re all clear about good and bad intentions and the role they play at least in the worldly scheme of things if not the Universal.

  47. Harb says:

    hari, what punishment dharamraj would have given to the author of the story is a hypothetical statement.
    He may well have sent the author to heaven instead because his story may have served the same purpose for some extraordinarily oppressed/wronged person/people like Phoola Devi, like Hitler’s Geremany after she was forced to sign on the too humilating/soul-killing conditons of surrender in first world war to fight for their honour and rightful place, as Ved Vyasa’s would have served in the garb of Krishana’s words for the people like Arjuna of the times, who were otherwise unable to go beyond the mental shackles of established rules of socalled good behaviour according to which they could not fight with their relatives, gurus etc.
    It is an other matter that when one is on it, momentum may often take one some steps beyond what may be called right, like if Phoolan devi was raped by ten people it could be understood if she killed 20 instead of those 10, similarly one can explain what Hitler did to Jews (Jews are doing no less to Palestinian people these days). It is like the story of Kali who went on a killing spree because something had annoyed her and then was only stopped by the intervention of Shiva in some way.
    And as for punishment in this world is concerned no less socalled good people are punished here than bad. Just remember what punishment two of our own gurus, Guru Arjun and Guru Teg Bahadur went through not to mention two absolutely innocent children of Guru Gobind Singh. So just surrender to the greater scheme of things, do whatever you think good at your place but dont theorise much for others. One cant readily find who is good and who is bad even in usual meanings of the words and for oneself much less for others.
    And God or whosoever you are, it is interesting to see you trying to frighten people with the mention of hell in this 21st century.
    There is no other Hell for me than what is already there in one’s mind in which his soul is entrapped and from which he will eventually have to extricate himself through evolution/suffering.
    And the sign of this coming out will be when one will begin to see all equal and different only in serving the greatest divine evolutionary scheme of things.
    By your mere saying that you are speaking from beyond inertia does not make it so. From beyond inertia things begin from within Silence and as water flows from high to low and do not speak or write like humans.
    A wise man had written somewhere: “If chairs were to find God they will find Him four-legged.” Which means one perceives everything including God as per his own evolutionary status. Animals surely see all as animals and in the same way they will see God if they could. Similarly as you are still entrapped in human mind you see ‘God’ as some super human being. But the One is beyond description and so are His actions/ways. Alternately, all is His Action/Play and we are nowhere.
    To me some clever people exploit others physically, some others emotionally, still some others intellectually and the most subtle so called spiritualy. You are trying to do the last by playing upon words of a great Rishi Ved Vyasa. Before advising others to go silent you should walk your own talk.
    Emotional entrapper tries to subjugate people emotionaly, intellectual entrapper tries to subjugate people through clever use of words/reason/intellect, spiritual entrapper tries to subjugate people by lulling them into goody goody spirituality, while a real well-wisher of theirs will try to awaken them, try to free them of all such entrapments at every stage, so that they can eventually savour the experience of fully awake, beyond all boundaries real One themselves.
    I may also add that sometimes one asks for forgiveness to avoid unnecessary arguments with someone whom he finds can move ahead only with time and through self-experience. Though that is not to say that your forgiveness is not welcome irrespective of it is the product of a misunderstanding. It is welcome.
    Swaami has explained very clearly that what we write on this blog is not going to be read by ordinary people so that they will be ‘misled’ by you or me. Even otherwise those who visit libraries do not often take law into their hands it is mostly those who have not read a word not to talk of books and their latest version, blogs. So dont worry on that score. And as for my book is concerned there is absolutely no mention of the words of the like of good, bad, Teressa, Hitler, or the disccusion like this, there everything is as simple as again, water flowing from high to low, beyond value judgements. I am also no saint or public figure that people are/will follow me and will get misled, I am a nobody and nobody knows me.

  48. hari/jimmy says:

    But alas what would people do?
    Churn more and more words to scratch each other’s back to forget faults of their own past and bury them in the forests of words.
    Find solace in each others words in more and more complex theorems to prove to their own minds that they were helpless,or that they couldn’t have been wrong as they were destined to do what they did.
    But then God sends one like me to spoil the party.
    Dipping in the holy Ganges changes nothing even if it’s the Ganges of the highest spiritio-scientific words.
    Oh how sorrowful it is to tell the Truth sometimes.

  49. swaami says:

    “Even otherwise those who visit libraries do not often take law into their hands it is mostly those who have not read a word not to talk of books and their latest version, blogs.”
    I may like to add –
    Actually some real hardcore extremists incidentally do go to libraries hunting for supports/lessons. Osama went deep into the roots of hadiths to inspire Muslims to follow his orthodox/fanatic inclinations in the name of Prophet Mohammad and in the name of Allah. Even Hitler had his own God as Vrekhem explains in his book by the same name.

  50. swaami says:

    Illusions #45
    I felt it to be a wrong choice of word while using it but didn’t stress much to change it to something else.
    It is not surprising to find outer differences on certain fronts even amongst beings who have realized this Oneness. I termed those outer differences as Illusions.
    More specific in terms of terminology could be Residuals howsoever fractional that maybe. Or perhaps Hari bhai the way you have termed this in your words – as a product of ones own deeds and resultant psychology, which I am sure you also have your own.
    Evenif we take just one example of karma, freewill, and destiny we can see differences amongst sages/realized ones of all times(including present times) though they all have been connected with the same Source. Why so? Some more directional/direct insights to it Harb, that will be welcomed.

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