Aditya, my new assistant asked : Am I in control my destiny ?
There is a more fundamental question. Who is the ‘I’ that is asking that question ? If the question is being asked by stepping outside the illusory ‘I’ and looking it from a universal point of view, then the ‘event’ (that is perceived to be destined) and the ‘I ‘ are the same. There is no difference between the two as they are locked in an eternal embrace. There is no ‘question’ that can separate the two, existing as they are, in the same matrix of bubbling potential. However if the question is being asked from inside the illusion of being in the ‘I’, then the question is completely valid and will always remain a valid question with no valid answer. It is in the nature of the Illusion of our existence that the world can be imagined only in questions and resolved, if at all, in fantasy. For ultimately all the questions arise from desire, and what creates the desire is the imagined separation between desire and the event that is desired. That separation or duality gives rise to the question.
hi shekhar,
if only we could be outside the illusory ‘i’ inspite of being flesh and blood human beings…!
with introspection and meditational practice you can certainly have moments where you achieve that state………not the entire lifespan.
from within the illusory ‘i’……..it is not so important to control your destiny as it is to understand it.when you are fine tuned to your inner self, you intuitively ‘know’ and anticipate what follows. i do believe that all things have a purpose including the individuality, creativity and all the qualities one is born with. as stages of our life unfold, we see why they were put there.
yet…….. most powerful people of the world would like to believe they are the ‘doers’ of all that is achieved.
so true…gr8 answer
Here’s a simple answer – ‘Every hair on the body is counted’.
Dear Shekhar,
I am believer of the axiom that “existence exists” which is the fundamental principle of objectivism. And I do believe that we have a certain destiny as individuals inside this collective universe and the only thing that we can control to some extent are our thoughts and intentions. The rest is left to the universe which according to me is very obedient and follows pure intentions. The only condition here is that the how and when the things you desire will happen should be left to the universe.
The concept that everything is an illusion and nothing exists in reality is rather difficult to believe with an intelligent mind. Like why did humans come in to being on this one planet which according to science took millions of years of evolution – Was all this evolution just for the sake of saying that now that we are evolved, we realize that we don’t even exist and all this is a dream.
Sometimes I look to the heavens for answers, looking at the planets and stars. I feel that maybe everything on earth is Maya, but then what about the Moon, Mars, Saturn, are they also Maya? and why are they there in our proximity – why is the sun there to keep the earth warm and alive – if it was all a dream why would it matter to keep the earth warm, for illusions can survive without logic, so why is the reality we see around us so logical. When a person drowns in water, why does he die of asphyxiation when an illusion can keep him alive but the logic that we need air to breathe works 100% of the time in this illusionary world. Like the food crisis – Is that also an illusion i.e. the whole world, its people and species, the food are all illusions so why should we bother about feeding anyone – it is just a dream and they are hungry in a dream, not in reality.
Which brings us to the main point. If it is a dream should we take the dream seriously especially if it is a persistent dream that lasts a lifetime and then that dream becomes reality for the time period the shop is open i.e. our awake time. In our sleep we see other dreams which are therefore dreams within dreams and if that is 6 to 8 hrs of our life we should take those dreams seriously as well. However the night dreams seem to have little logic and we seem to have little control over them, they are in a sort of playback mode. While in the day time we can make a difference. If there is a store at the corner of a street and you take a bulldozer and raze it to the ground it changes for everyone passing by from there i.e. the illusion is the same for everyone i.e. one man changed the daytime dream of everyone around him, but this should not happen as everyone should be in their own unique Maya. So the Maya seems to be one for everyone atleast as far as physical objects are concerned. The fall of the twin towers on 9/11 changed the Maya for everyone on the planet – I don’t know of any humans who are still seeing them there right now, yet some maybe seeing them there during their sleep. So why does the day dream not allow anyone to see the twin towers while the night one does. No one can stand in front of the ground zero site with their eyes open and see the twin towers there no matter how much imagination they use. They can see it in their mind which will be a re-play of past images. No matter how much imagination they use they can’t see how the twin towers looked in 2004 to 2005 as they did not exist then. So is the night dream a dream as humans know it and the day one reality. In the night one if we cut out hand with a knife the blood may or may not come out, maybe flowers with come out, who knows?, but in the day one blood will definitely come out no matter what we tell our brain, whether we are drunk or sober or on drugs, have a intelligent mind or not – so why does blood come out for everyone – why are we all made to see the same Maya. Why is the daytime Maya so logical and what are mars and Venus doing here – Why are the clouds there and the rain? Why does the rain falling on the soil have to create that unique odor that I love – does the illusion need to have a smell as well? These are some of the questions that I need answer for and these observations make me believe the something real is going on – maybe they just wanted to see life as a Maya, an illusion, coz it is short in terms of eternity and thought of its ending causes pain but no one has been able to bring somebody back from the dead in this illusion, although some have been able to bring them back during their dreams at night, even talk to them. Can anyone please help me by giving me some examples of the illusionary nature of the day Maya?
Best Regards,
Himanshu
Shekhar,
Its one of those old traditional Indian dialouges between Purusha&Prakriti-Consciousness&Matter or Shiva&Shakti for that matter.Yes Purusha is in control but has no boundries or finity.And yes matter always needs consciousness to give it various shapes.Universal Consciousness’s point of view is the only true point of view-ofcourse one has to transcend ones material existance to experience it but its very much there at the core of each of us(whether realised or not).
With ones material existence I also mean its most subtle parts like mind and intellect.But once Consciousness as such has been realised this very matter(both sublime and crude) becomes subservient to It and carries out its dictat for the betterment of both the self and Self.
yes Destiny is controlled by the few who’ve been destined to transcend it and then control it for the spontaneous good.Somewhat like the wild cards or jocker cards in a pack of cards which can take up any role when need be.
Or another way to put it is that after the Universal realisation of the Self-the word destiny seems meaningless as the man-made concept of ‘time’ ceases to have any meaning.Its just that you are.whether you shave or keep a beard has nothing to do with the word destiny but with your transcendental spontanious liking.
Jimmy Cosmos
Shekhar
Other way it can be said , Is the destiny controlling me.
Shekhar
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ye say…
For ultimately all the questions arise from desire, and what creates the desire is the imagined separation between desire and the event that is desired.
me thinks…
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Desires themselves are questions within…the desire is ye the question and the answer is ye…
if there were no questions where would the answers be?
if there are to be answers, then it is a question to thee…
hence its an answer in thy question, a question in the answer…
Thats how desire is to be!!
Created desires are not the answers…the desire itself is a question!!
Did I make sense as usual?
NO?
Errm maloom tha…
Wait lemme sit in da korner n munch popcorn!!
Care to have some??
Shmilee
Yes majority of times ye can control thy destiny at times…the journey of controlling leads ye to be controlled…its a journey of controlling and to be controlled…
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A circle!!
mew mew
shekhar……..when your assistant asks you such a question, it probably was a simplistic query relating to his prospects and chances of succeeding in his given career, life etc….?
it is normal for ALL of us to be questioning from within the illusory ‘i’, since that is our abode for this lifetime atleast.
by his query he was eager to know if things will work out as per his desires ? for that dont you think that clarity of what you want, coupled by an ability to express it well to the interactive party concerned……where you lay your cards on the table…….and then, the integrity to deliver from your end is what truly gives you control over your destiny ?
so much simpler than churning indefinately within the mind……..and going over ‘what ifs’ one million times ?!
I think meditation is instrumental in taking us beyond the superficiality of the world and in sensing our inner natures. It opens up our inherent intuitions that otherwise remain clouded by random or insecure thoughts.
Himanshu, my understanding of maya/illusion is that we live in a material world – matter propped up by energy. It is no ordinary dream, as it is the dream of the creator and as extraordinary as you describe. Why have such a dream ? Divine play is an answer that makes sense to me, though I would like a better answer!
Without control there cannot be destiny…
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and yet
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Destiny cannot be controlled!!
Shekhar i left my packet of popcorn here??
Sab kha gaye???????
Areh!!!!
Popcorn ki destiny tho confirmed hui…
chalti hu…
We have no control over our destiny – we are destined to go from duality to oneness with each step come what may – but we must act as if we have control. (If we succeed in our action the above fact should save us from going mad with success; if we fail, the above fact will save us from going to the deepest pits of despair.)
Harb
dear shekhar,
‘the seperation between desire and the event that is desired’ is what makes us work towards fulfilling our desire ?
frankly, the manner in which we are born ( out of the womb…..strange isnt it ? )and then the way we just step out of our bodies ( death ) when the time comes……..hovering on the outside looking at ourselves and all that we did while we were in that body !……….thats proof enough of the illusionary nature of our existence.
yet, as we are the chosen ones for human birth……..our karmas make us go through all the physical, emotional, intellectual, psychological……etc experiences written for us.
the vacation from our karmas though………is when we meditate and touch base with our consciousness which has nothing to do with our human avtaar ! that elixir can be tapped into if we do not lose touch with our consciousness while fulfilling our karmas here.
on reflection……when people go to psychologists (or sessions in hypnotism ) or for sessions in past life regression………they are actually made to experience ENTIRELY ( emotions, events, smells and touch, fears and joys…….etc associated with events and blockages of the past ! when the patient surfaces again is the only time he/she realises that it was an illusion……..until then he/she experiences everything that is completely real for that moment ! isnt that too a miniature version of real life……..? is the psychologist not playing GOD for that period of time ?
Who is the “I”?
There are three “I”s.
One is obviously the non-dual One, we partake of it as each drop in a sea partakes of the “I” of the sea as well. As each cell in my body partakes my overall “I” as well. But as Shekhar says it hardly has any questions to ask, nay hardly has anything to say. It just Is. One with it we will go silent. we will just Be.
Then coming down, to the world of duality, the world of forms as against the world of substance called non-dual One above, we have our individual “I”s, underscoring our separateness from the whole as well as and, more importantly, underscoring our evolutionary status.
Taking the phrase from David Bohm I call it my “self-referent” “I” (as against the third “I” which is going to be called my quantum mechanicsl “I” as will be explained below).
This self-referent “I” identifies me as a child in my childhood, a youth in my youth, a middle ager in my middle age and an old ager in my old age.
Recall we usually put our hand at our navel when we are to say “I” in our childhood, at our heart when we are to say “I” in our youth, at our temples when we are to say or refer to “I” in our middle age (incidently see Shekhar above placing his hand near his temples)and finally we place our hand at our socalled spiritual heart supposed to be two digits to the right of our physical heart when we are to say “I” in our old age, also age of wisdom, of spirituality (where christians mark the center of cross or buddhists place their hand while bowing).
This is because we acquire all the above four phases thanks to our passing through four basic forces induced four basic interactions in our entire life and accordingly our “I”s depict the centers of those four basic forces or interactions.
Our childhod is the product of gravitational interactions and we place our hand at navel because it is more or less our center of gravity in our childhood.
We place our hand at our heart in youth, because youth is the product of electromagnetic force or interactions, an interaction of attractions and repulsions, of loves and hates and we place our hands here because it is now the center of electromagnetic forces acting on us.
Similarly in middle age we are in the reign of strong forces or interactions, the interactions which give us ego, thought, intellect, reason etc etc, and whose center is in our head; and in old age we are in the reign of weak interactions whose center is at what is called our spiritual heart (If one is further interested one may consult my book Self-Designed Universe).
Laslty comes our quantum-mechanical “I”. Our quantum-mechanical “I” in short is the product of who is observing/interacting with us at any given point of time as against our self-referent “I” which will be independent of the observer. For example suppose I am an old man, as a self-referent organism my “I” will coincide with my spiritual heart, but now suppose a child comes to talk to me, then immediately from within the perimetres of my old age “I” there will spring an other “I” which will be that of a child in me. It can happen because within each phase there are further four phases. And we know quantum reality depends upon the observer. There are details but which cannot be given in such short messages.
I believe we have choices. We ultimately can choose to follow our destiny or reject it. I do believe there are things we are meant to do in our life. It’s just if we are willing to do them. I like the reference above to dreams. I think dreams can reveal a lot to us.
Kandy
Choices are illusionary thoughts that lead to emotions, passion and doership. It is quite vain to think that a limited individual mind can make any choice whatsoever by computing the infinity of probabilities that exist every moment. And it is much more vain to think that the grand universal design would even allow any form of control to petty individual minds. Be still, and observe the design at play.
good morning shekhar !
hey…….the next blog is not by you…..again, so soooooon ! are you retiring from your blog………………sloooooooooowly ??
when we visit your blog, it is basically to touch base with YOU ! the rest we can gather from the papers itself ? it is a pleasure to read a blog chosen by you ( written by another ) as the topic of discussion on a particular day…….so long as it comes from you !
i will always be on the blog, ๐ – don’t worry – I am just widening the experience for our community – I am also asking dr parchaury – the nobel prize winner to also share his thoughts on envoirment with us, shekhar
shekhar……..YOU talk to various people and come back to us as you do……..! then we can share as we always do……..yeah ? ๐
hi shekhar !
this is a personal observation im sharing with you……..
when changes are taking place in your destiny, its amazing to just observe the daily changes in the lines in the palm of your hand ! believe me…..its like a live creature……! slowly and surely building ….. the lines are 1st faint, then over the months they get stronger and darker and soon you have in your palm, lines that were not there earlier !
if you understand a bit of palmistry, then you have a VERY clear indication of which area is gathering strength and where it is headed.
the paradox here is……..all the while that this movement is taking place, there maybe people around you, who are trying to block your path………yet the lines keep growing stronger !
the beauty is that you are really NOT doing anything as yet in accordance with these goings on on your palm……. you are just an observer, watching while GOD is writing everyday……the changes that herald yet another phase of your life………written by HIM…….to be lived by YOU.
how can i ever be so arrogant as to think that i can ever change or control destiny…..?
Himanshu’s view on this struck a chord with me.My view on what you said Himanshu, is that you are trying find an explantion from within the ‘logical’ construct of your thought.
That thought stems from two things.
1.Knowledge: that you gain from years of learning (Darwin,Newton,linear time etc).It also includes your experience of physical world.Memory essentially.
2.Ego or the ‘I’ or the observer: One that steps in to interpret reality and shape it for you on an ongoing basis.
To note an experience or event as real, both of these need to come together.Your approach of ‘what you see is what is real’ suffers here.It can only hold good if these 2 bits (knowledge and ego) stay a constant.The problem is they don’t.You learn and unlearn knowledge everyday.Eg: time was a univeral constant when Newton was around.Time is relative today after Einstein.Time is not necessarily linear.Our assumption that it moves forward might be that,an assumption.When time becomes relative,all our real world ideas based on its forward movement,like evolution,aging, also get questioned.
Your ‘ego’ or the observer undergoes a sea change over time as well.It can be unlearnt as well.We do that when we sense that sudden rush of anger for eg:.We just are in a state of anger,maybe for a few seconds,when we dont observe it, but are in it,and it is followed by the observer,who measures the emotion,qualifies it and describes a possible action.
If reality stems from these 2 fundamentally changing factors,how constant is it ‘really’.In my opinion we intrinsically overate the ‘maya’ or ‘objective existence’.But to accept an alternative does not mean we need to deride or underate the ‘maya’.
a lot depends on what one believes as far as destiny goes. if for some reason you believe you are ‘destined’ to go a certain way, you will. one’s thoughts, words and actions (the predominant ones) shape our lives.
but that brings me to the next question: why do people think and act differently? the only logical explanation seems to be that karmic baggage for each one of us is unique and this navigates our minds towards experiences we need. so in other words, we are fated to go certain ways depending on our karma.
recently i read that there are three kinds of karma
a) sanchita karma: the sum total for any soul
b) praarabdha karma: karma which is going to be evened out in this lifetime
c) agaami karma: karma which we make as we go along
so, in essence, yes we are destined to go through certain things but we can modify it and certainly shape our future in this life and the next.
your assistant was prb destined to be your assistant but it is his choice to take his interaction with you to a metaphysival level and one which will broaden his horizon.
love, shivani
This whole process of analysis is enough to make one go into a depression.Ignorance is bliss .The uneducated villager who works hard and is happy to eat well, is the most blessed.We thinkers are the damned ones.
Belief in God for example.
You have a logical explanation that there must be someone who has created everything, then we think further–who created that Someone? This question has proved so baffling to me that I felt one could be happiest when one does the duties happily and stop this search. One question leads to another and there is a never ending line of queries ,an emptiness remains,with the question for “what purpose all this?”
I dont think anyone has an answer!
for believers…you cant play god !
for athiests…you cant control everything!
of late I find the word “I” to be the most abusive word in Hindu philosphy. The moment you say “I” those stupid philosphers will say “You have ego” and then the whole crap comes down where they refer to books and endless talks and reality is they too are victims of book knowledge.
Buddha was never in control of destiny…
(if you read Buddha life as a human being and not as super hero) If we prod a little deeper, one has to go with flow of life…
When a question is raised “Am I in control of Destiny”? there is one basic thing people who question forget…
are they pure?
have they formed a goal?
do they know master probelm?
are they aware of psychological knots?
if aforesaid are known…things become clear as everything will be confined to just one word….
that one word will give them possible answer to their respective life…quest…questions…
and then….
only then they can question their inner voice…
am i in control of destiny!
This topic of destiny keeps coming..no-one is satiated with any take it seems..here’s another take – A Newly Discovered Socratic Dialogue!
Free Will and Predetermination – Do we have Free Will?
SOCRATES Hail to Thee, Aeschines! From where do you return to visit us now?
AESCHINES I have just returned from my father’s kitchen where I was assisting him in making his famed spiced meat delicacies.
S. Yes! Charinus makes the finest sausages in all Athens, that is beyond dispute.
A. Thank you, Socrates. Next to my father, I love you dearly. I hope I shall never leave you. Strike me with your staff, for you will find no wood hard enough to keep me away from you, so long as I think you’ve something to say.
S. Only the sausage-maker’s son knows how to honour me. I wish all my friends were as loyal as you, Aeschines. In some ways, your respected profession has often appealed to me as most enviable. You assist your Father whom you love, earn an honest livelihood, exercise great care and attention keeping the restless mind in check, and what is more, create delicacies for the citizens of Athens to enjoy with wine and fill their bellies, which when digested, turns to thought and hopefully beneficial actions. I am persuaded of your eminent skill, Aeschincs. I trust you will not refuse me a sample of your labours.
A. Thou speakest truth as always, Socrates. You said earlier that my food after being digested, stimulates thought which leads to action.
S. I recall having said that.
A. Does this mean I am indirectly responsible for my clients’ thoughts and deeds?
S. After a fashion, partially, but not completely. Thoughts need food stuff to make them happen.
A. But surely Socrates, man is responsible for his own thoughts and actions, and has the freedom to decide his acts?
S. Dear boy, I hope you will not be shocked when I tell you that man has no freedom of will, and is not responsible for his actions.
A. But surely Socrates, this goes against the ‘consensus gentium’ of educated people and their commonsense. I feel and I know that I am responsible for my acts. When I think to do something, I carry it out.
S. Are you so sure, my dear fellow? Let us examine this matter more closely. Sit down a while. You say you think; where does the thought that you have, come from, in the first instance? Where does it arise?
A. From me, of course.
S. From Me. Tell me, who is this Me? Can you find him inside? Now watch closely. Where do thoughts actually come from? Be very honest.
A. Well, surprisingly they seem to arrive from nowhere, out of the blue. From the Gods, perhaps.
S. Now you see that you did not create the initial thought. It arrives from you know not where. Then what happens?
A. It commences the faculty of reasoning.
S. Yes. It touches your mind, and either the thought is rejected as unworthy or accepted as useful, according to needs, standards of upbringing and so forth; and it starts a process called thinking.
A. But surely I start the process of reasoning.
S. Are you sure? Look closely now. See what actually happens. A thought arrives from nowhere, touches the mind which reacts according to its patterns of education and what it believes to be the right response, and some more thought weighs the matter up.
A. But surely in the weighing I choose from the alternatives offered by commonsense and reason?
S. I mistrust your commonsense and conventional opinion, the so-called reason of the masses. Only the philosophers understand the nature of choice, and not too many of them, I suspect.
A. Do you mean I didn’t choose?
S. What happens if you watch, dear sausage maker, is that the mind or thoughts present alternatives, and according to your disposition you choose what you consider to be the most practical, pleasurable and in the best interest for you. But there is no daemon inside to choose. The choice happens mechanically, like an abacus, and then the mind foolishly ascribes it to itself as “a free agent”, boasting arrogantly “I CHOOSE.”
A. Please continue, Socrates. This is most illuminating.
S. Truly the choice was inevitable. The so-called act of choosing was part of the structure of predetermination. The choice was inevitable, because it appealed to your hidden tendencies of pleasure, and what you believe to be appropriate. In fact there was never any freedom to choose anything other than that which was chosen.
A. But surely if a man does good deeds, they are his own, just as the man who does evil deeds?
S. Again, Aeschines, let us examine very closely. Watch how everything happens. A train of inevitable events leads one man to the good, another to the so-called evil.
A. How is that?
S. One man is born into a noble womb, with refined educated parents, another into an uncaring home of ignorance. Patterns of behaviour are laid down like a mosaic, by example and imitation. What you call good and bad habits are largely mimicry.
A. But surely, Socrates, there are innate tendencies of good and evil that men are born with?
S. Yes. Souls are transmigrated with these tendencies laid down.
A. So what determines this behaviour of these souls?
S. Examples from parents, family, teachers, people you meet, heroes, reading, and so forth. You are determined all the time, by each new event.
A. Is this the way the Gods control our destiny?
S. Broadly, yes.
A. I see. So when I choose, I imagine I’m choosing, but really it’s all predetermined.
S. Exactly. You are beginning to see the point.
A. Then tell me, Socrates, the idea that I can do anything of my own free will, is that falsely imagined?
S. Yes.
A. Then how do I live?
S. Choose as if you have choice, knowing you really have none. This is a step towards freedom and the Good. It will remove guilt, and stop you from blaming others for their so called bad deeds, and stop you from flattering others for their so called good deeds, according to society’s approval or disapproval.
A. If this was generally understood, what would our tragedians have to write about?
S. Very little. But about good and bad, the Nubian, Libyan and Egyptian have quite different standards to we Greeks, neither better nor worse except according to our opinion. Moreover, each tragedy illustrates a chief characteristic which prevents the hero from coming to Self knowledge. Such was the blindness of Oedipus.
A. But how will I live, knowing all this?
S. Enjoy yourself, my boy. Be happy. Love your work, and study philosophy, but don’t attribute your actions to an imaginary ME who doesn’t actually exist which is the real slavery.
A. Thank you Socrates. But
S. There are always ‘buts’ – listen! This idea that men can act independently of the Gods is at the root of their bondage, and enslaves master and boy alike. To be free, a man must know this clearly. This is my point. I hammer it home continuously.
A. How do I see this clearly?
S. Some time, reflect on major events of your day and examine how much they really happened through your free will? This will undermine your vanity and your pride.
A. Thank you.
S. The tyrant is the imaginary ME who has usurped the Good which is our birthright of freedom. Sacrifice him to the Gods, and all will be well, I promise.
A. Thank you again, Socrates.
S. Come, my dear friend, let us enjoy your sausage with some Cypriot wine; Ah! I can see Alciabides approaching.
One more take, with no explanation though:
“Neither is everything predestined, nor do we have free will in everything,”
said the Great Sage, Ramana Maharshi.
The thought that everything is predistined will make people lazy ,to be relaxed so as to be easily driven by the whirlpool.Is man such a non entity as a leaf to be sucked into the vortex of a whirl pool.Where to get the answer to the question of the meaning and purpose of creation?Total believer edges dangerously into the region of the atheist.The line between these two totally vehement and opposed school is ctirtically thin.The Swamis and Gurus always teaching us to look within and discouraging rituals seem to finally lead us into a non believing mind set.Poor WE.Do we really know what to do?
S. Choose as if you have choice, knowing you really have none. This is a step towards freedom and the Good. It will remove guilt, and stop you from blaming others for their so called bad deeds, and stop you from flattering others for their so called good deeds, according to society’s approval or disapproval.
Here Socrates says the same thing I have said above in the words: “We have no control over our destiny – we are destined to go from duality to oneness with each step come what may – but we must act as if we have control. (If we succeed in our action the above fact should save us from going mad with success; if we fail, the above fact will save us from going to the deepest pits of despair.)
As for Ramana, he almost always speaks from the point of view of the One, and from the point of view of the One, there is indeed no determinism and no free will. All stands coalesced.
Choose as if you have choice, knowing you really have none. This is a step towards freedom and the Good. It will remove guilt, and stop you from blaming others for their so called bad deeds.
In the name of the Destiny, this ideology also gives a sense of freedom to those who are into cruel deeds.
Justbe,
All are Self and doing the bidding of the Self. There are no cruel or non-cruel hands.
Moreover, there is no dearth of ideologies for anybody to do whatever he/she wants to do. Even though, again, that too is at the bidding of the Self, or Its Perfect Scheme of Things.
Here is also an answer to your questions at an other thread (which I have not been able to find, pl help) regarding whether what you arrive at with your efforts is really Self or not. Obviously it is not, for, one glimpse of the real Self removes all differences usually dichotomic words like good and evil, pious and impious, higher self and lower self represent. You cant say cruel deeds and yet claim you have seen Self. All are just deeds, all serve the same Perfect Scheme of Things through them. Through socalled cruel deeds one suffers, or makes the other suffer, and in the porcess evolves for, suffering is the only way through which the evolutionary Scheme of Things advances. Otherwise one wouldn’t want to budge from the status quo.
As for coming of some disturbing thoughts etc these are because of our advancement through cycles-within-cycles. These will go away with time.
hi uncle herb, welcome back
the scheme of things ‘seems’ perfect but its really hard to take word by word that everything is destined raising a situation of null and void.
and as far as ideologies in the way you have taken it u r right there is no dearth of it. when i said ideologies(maybe i used the wrong word) i actually meant only the shared experiences/words of the ‘Self-realised ones’. Most tend to differ considerably on this subject of Destiny and Free-will and are different from your feeling of affirmation and they are as firm. and i am as firm and have no shame in exclaiming – i don’t really know:) Thence, whether i have had the experience of the Self or the glimpse of It or not, (which i never claimed towards any way and have always felt in the direction of – ‘i don’t know what does it really mean by experiencing It’ Q?) it seems strange to take my feel on Destiny(not mere limitation of words) as a benchmark of sorts n take it as a tool to look at It.
i would like you to look at the lost thread which u will be able to find in the right light green column under the title : The search for the Self
i ll be glad if you go there and throw more light on the peculiarities of this journey of Self(the details of which i had expressed in detail there earlier when you were away) which i know is ever prevalent..just seeks reveleation and reflect clarity on the dilemma of what/how really does it mean/feel by actuality of the revelation..
i would like to have a separate mention here that lets not focus on this subject of Destiny and Freewill of which i pretty much understand that an experience of Self will transcend it completely even if the verbally shared versions are different or sound different. e.g. when we use the words that we should not prefer killing – doesn’t necessarily mean its dichotomous. it was in the same light i meant what i meant in #29 in response to #28 where you said it will save ‘us’ from going to the deepest pits of despair. i just bifurcated this ‘us’ by saying that some of us will be saved(which is also so called) and some of us will misuse(which is also so called) this. If need be we will take it further some other day inspite of the limitations that words have.
the main concern at present, rather the only concern whether or not i understand what does it actually mean by being established in the Self in terms of having a glimpse and beyond it. i have shared my experiences around this with you which i don’t know what does it translate to and if that is not what It is then what else?? please take it step by step i will be gratefully thankful.
You choose your destiny or destiny chooses your course… Half True Half False
Whatever it is the “I” is so very powerful , it can Rule, Captivate, Kill , Heal , Love , Compromise etc etc The “I” can represent Myself or My People or My Country or My Globe Or My Planet. My “I” at times could be the opinion of several others or purely mine. My Body , My Soul , Me & the “i” are relatively different yet dissolved as one medium. The soul departed and there lies my dead body , though my thoughts & opinions are there to be followed for a million generations to come, and i would be more happy to be remembered as a humble servant of almighty , My existence as a human would be realized if my action or words should benefit any soul on this planet. Who’s “I” was at work when hiroshima was bombed , The “I” of Hitler , The “I” of Mahatma Gandhi etc etc Does it sound like a new insight to your “I” Theory. The Knowledge you are looking for is already omni present in this world…..
Today the question should read;
Destiny: Sold or Stolen?
Key points:
Monopoly, corporate responsibility, idealogies, pushing the right/wrong buttons, and my personal itch with Reality TV (MTV USA).
Each and every person is absolutely selfish to the core. Every action performed is completely for our own selfish needs and fulfilment.
Whatever we think – is part or product of our previous or past experiences alone. Even if I read, listen or talk about something, I am only playing with my past experiences and nothing else.
I feel I am everything. I am everyone around as well. I am the other person as well.
A simple example: When I watch a movie, I experience the character experiences, happiness, sadness, anger, desires, etc… I am the character! When I am in conversation with others, whatever other person is trying to convey, I am only able to understand it based on my own past experiences. In reality whatever any person conveys, he cannot actually convey anything at all of his own! They are all verily my own! In this way one ‘other’ exists only I exist. There is nothing outer or outside of our own experiences.
About Birth and Death: there is no birth or death at all. We cannot cannot know or experince birth or death. whatever we know about death or birth is only about what we see. we see a child born or a human die. we have been told everything. whatever is there in mind is not ours at all. To a child the mother or grandmother tells that the sky is ‘blue’ infact the mother introduces herself first as a mother and introduces her father to the baby. what does the baby know. Its empty. in this way whatever there is in our mind is not ours.
When the scriptures say that we have had millions of previous births to attaing a human birth. they actually meant not the physical body being born and dying again and again. what actually dies is the thoughts. each time a thought is born it dies when a new thought is born. Will “I” be there to experience birth or death? only the ‘illusion’ other only see’s birth or death.
Our mind is a repository of knowledge of millions and millions of years of human civilisation and knowledge. right from pre historic mankind to modern man is only ‘I’
realy death is not a clinical death as we see but realy death is the death of this ‘I’ – past experieces. once its completely flushed out of our system what remains is nothing! as ‘I’ is not there.
Regards,
Ganesh
Shakar,
You seem to be influenced by JK’s rabbit-holed philosophy. Your assistant’s question, after all, is not that hard to answer; however your answer, is certainly overload. Sorry if I this offends you.